Bible in A Year: Episode 38

Intro • 00:00
Welcome to Read the Bible in a Year with Matt and Hannah, a weekly podcast from Fairfax Bible Church where we explore scripture together, uncovering its themes and design patterns. We’re glad you’re here. Now, here are your hosts, Matt and Hannah.

Matt • 00:10
Okay, this is episode number thirty-eight, Hannah.

Hannah • 00:19
Wow. That’s a lot

Matt • 00:22
That’s uh a lot. You know, it’s funny, you would think that we’re used to doing this by now, but I still feel like every time I sit down here at the podcast machine, I forget how it works. And I have to go through my checklist.

Hannah • 00:34
Uh-huh.

Matt • 00:37
But the wonderful, amazing, smart, talented Uh Kyle Corwin is sort of our informal producer. And when we were setting this up all the way back at the beginning of the year, he helped us make like a little checklist So, you know, make sure this and that about and I still go through the checklist because I don’t want Kyle to get mad at me. Oh, good. He would never get mad at me, of course. Uh speaking of Kyle Uh there’s a connection between Kyle and the number 38. Okay. I don’t expect you to guess what it is, but I Um I think I might giggle at your potential guesses. Can you guess what the connection between our friend Kyle and the number 38 might be?

Hannah • 01:16
I mean, I kind of feel like it has to be sports related.

Matt • 01:18
Okay, you’re a little bit more than a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little

Hannah • 01:19
And I know that Kyle played baseball.

Matt • 01:23
He did.

Hannah • 01:24
Set his Jersey number?

Matt • 01:26
It was not his jersey number. Okay. Um but uh it was the jersey number of somebody that he would be very uh connected with, a pitcher named Kurt Schilling.

Hannah • 01:43
Okay.

Matt • 01:43
Wore the number thirty eight. Kurt Schilling played on a couple of different teams, but he was on the Boston Red Sox. Which is Kyle’s favorite team when they won the World Series in 2004 for like the first time in 100 years.

Hannah • 01:57
Oh wow.

Matt • 01:58
So there you go. Kyle, this one is for you. Episode number thirty-eight in honor of your association with Kurt Schilling. Now Kurt Schilling turns out to be kind of a creepy guy that a lot of people are uncomfortable with, but never mind that part right now. Here we go. There you go, Kyle. Episode 38. All right. So Hannah, what are we going to talk about on episode 38?

Hannah • 02:21
I believe we’re going to talk about Second Corinthians.

Matt • 02:24
Oh, okay. I like it. So we talked last time we were together, how Second Corinthians is kind of like part four of a book series, film series, whatever You said but we don’t know what like parts one and three are. So what’s happening here? What what happened between these letters? Where are we in this great arc of Corinth, Corinthians?

Hannah • 02:47
Yeah, so we mentioned last week how there’s some kind of implications in First Corinthians that there was some previous letter that Paul sent. To the church in Corinth, and then that the church in Corinth sent Paul another letter responding With some questions and concerns and things like that that Paul addresses in the letter that we call First Corinthians. And then we see in the book of Second Corinthians that Paul mentions both A visit that he made in person, uh a painful visit, as he describes it, um, between the writing of these two letters. And there’s also a a now I guess a third letter, which was written both between First and Second Corinthians, that he describes as one that he wrote with anguish and tears. And we don’t have so So maybe we actually have second and fourth Corinthians in our in our Bible. And we don’t have first and third Corinthians. Um, though we’ll keep calling them first and second.

Matt • 03:58
Yeah, I well I’m I’m already confused, so yeah. Yeah, it’s so fascinating. It’s like so many like classic uh plays or films where there’s some of the interesting action happens off the stage. We don’t actually get to see it in the narrative. It’s really important, but we don’t get to see it. Uh and so that’s a little bit of a challenge as a reader here is there’s some sort of kind or somebody said something to someone, but we don’t know. So it’s a I I don’t know if frustrating is the word, but really challenging to make sense of What conversation are we having here? What why is Paul saying these things?

Hannah • 04:35
Yeah, we’re reading someone’s mail and and only part of the conversation and only one side of the conversation from Paul to the church. And we miss the context also of Paul’s in-person visits, although we know that it was it involved um you know, painful discussions and some kind of serious confrontation between Paul and some of the believers there. So we can pick up on some of the context, but Yeah, we need to kind of approach these letters with humility to understand we don’t have the full story necessarily.

Matt • 05:09
Yeah. Yeah. So there is one aspect of it that I want to start out by Talking. This one, uh, you know, certainly more than Romans, uh, and more than some of the other books we’re going to see. This one reads, you talked about we’re reading somebody’s mail. It’s almost like we’re reading a love letter. In a strange way. Sure. Yeah, Paul clearly cares deeply about these people. There are significant issues between them. He is laboring intensely. To bring clarity and reconciliation here. He and he uses words like anguish, grief pouring himself out. It’s it’s like almost like it’s a love story between a pastor, missionary, apostle, and a church that he cares deeply about.

Hannah • 05:56
Yeah.

Matt • 05:57
Yeah. And so because but it’s it’s not a love letter like you might see in sort of you know, books like Sense and Sensibility or Jane Eyre or something like that, where it’s just uh or of Shakespeare’s sonnets where it’s just listing out all of these things about his beloved that he adores. It’s it’s confrontational, but it’s because he loves them that he is being very direct, very confrontational, um, going right at some of the things that concern him. I’m not used to sort of seeing that dynamic and I know about you. Hmm.

Hannah • 06:35
Yeah, I guess I guess that’s fair there because there’s a a balance to be found between love and truth, I guess, or confrontation of of sin, um, which We know Jesus did, but that’s a hard in practice, that’s a hard balance to find.

Matt • 06:54
Yeah, I you know, I would say, and I’m thinking I’m I’m picking up so chapter one tells us a little bit kind of the the We really only hints about what we get that happened in the story between the letters is is he, you know, he does his usual greeting, Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercy and the God of all comfort. You know, chapter one of Second Corinthians is all about him wanting to offer comfort to them because they’ve had these very hard conversations and he He sort of alludes to a another conferen uh another uh communication that he had with us, uh the possible visit, the um the letter. And then in chapter two, he’s talking about how he didn’t want to come because when he does show up, he’s gonna have to have a very tough conversation with somebody. And he’s saying I wrote to you out of much affliction and anguish of heart and with many tears, not to cause you pain, but to let you know the abundant love. that I have for you.

Hannah • 07:52
Yeah.

Matt • 07:52
And then he does this thing and he says, if if anyone has caused pain, he’s caused it not to me, but in some measure, not to put it too severely, to all of you, for such a one this punishment by the majority is enough, so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything. Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. Any w uh And then and indeed what I uh choking on this, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ. So I think you might correct me if I’m wrong here, but in First Corinthians there was this issue with a uh man who was involved with his stepmother, and I think the speculation is this is talking about that. Is am I off on that one?

Hannah • 08:44
Uh I don’t know enough uh about that, but I I could see that.

Matt • 08:48
Yeah, if it wasn’t that it was something like that. Uh something of that name. There’s plenty to choose from, according to First Corinthians. And it looks like, okay, he said, Hey, I need you to confront this thing and it’s almost like they overshot. I think instead of just correcting this person, they removed him from the fellowship or k kicked him out of the church and he’s almost saying to them, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, we kind of went a little too far here.

Hannah • 09:10
Hmm. I could see how they would get there from 1 Corinthians though.

Matt • 09:15
100%.

Hannah • 09:16
He he kind of tells them like uh you know his presence here in your congregation is corrupting the rest of you. Yeah. I feel like the natural thing would be like, all right, we gotta kick him out. Yes You know?

Matt • 09:28
Yeah, so they overcorrect, so to speak.

Hannah • 09:31
Yeah. Yeah.

Matt • 09:32
Yeah. Yeah. And and so he’s like, okay, well, hold on, let’s let’s bring him back in because we want to restore him. Not just punish him. And that to me is so interesting. And we’re going to talk a little bit as we go along here about how Paul’s attitude and posture toward this church demonstrates the love and mission of Jesus in so many ways. But I think this is one of the one the early part of the letters the most interesting to me. Because Paul is clearly concerned and upset and going very directly at um a certain incidence of sin, and yet his intent is not to punish or uh isolate or remove somebody, it’s to bring restoration. And I don’t I don’t see that very often. It’s not generally my experience that a leader holds that posture. So I yeah, I’m really fascinated by this.

Hannah • 10:25
Yeah. Yeah, he talks in this letter a lot about reconciliation in chapter four especially and a bit in chapter six and a few other places. So Yeah, the ideal is not just to kick out people who are causing trouble or who are not uh who fall into sin or whatever, but to reconcile them back into community and into hopefully relationship with Jesus

Matt • 10:53
Yeah. And you know it’s interesting in our humble little church, we’re 14 years old now. We’ve had to do formal church discipline in only one instance. Uh and I won’t say the details. It’s not fair to the people involved to to do that. Um but it was Heartbreaking. Uh you know, it’s just this situation where there was clearly somebody who just was um, you know, blatantly disobeying. Uh uh what scripture teaches about something and we you know and Jeff was our pastor at the time and we just made communication after communication after communication to this person, hey, come back. We we want to talk to you about this person. And they just s you know, pushed us off, pushed us off, pushed us off. And so so finally we had to, you know, do a certified letter in the whole nine yards. It’s like, hey, we consider you not part of our body anymore. um because of what’s happened here. And so I I was thinking about that as I was reading this passage this week, about how Paul’s heart is restoration and reconciliation and bringing this person back into the family. Not excusing the sin or making that go away, but giving that person a chance to repent and be restored. And you know, in in the handful of situations where we’ve had to be, or or at least when I’ve kind of been part of conversations where we’ve had to do that. just how hard that is. You know, how to communicate that well and how to communicate God’s heart in that. And how to communicate like the sin is very serious and we have to be direct and honest about that. But the hope here is to bring you back. Um, and then the other person has to be willing to do that, which is sometimes the trickiest part of all. So it’s such a thin uh thin needle Paul is trying to thread here. Uh I’ve I’ve not seen it done very successfully very often, and yet Paul holds it out as a pretty uh clear expectation.

Hannah • 12:43
Yeah. Yeah.

Matt • 12:45
Yeah. So that’s really one thing that struck me about this book, reading it this time around, is as a leadership study, I just think it’s so interesting. There are so many dynamics around power and influence and who are we gonna listen to and who has the right to say what and when we hear somebody say their what, whatever it is, how are we supposed to respond to it? So Paul does this thing where he is so bold so direct, so confident in what he’s addressing, and yet he’s clearly emotional. I mean he uses words like aggrieved and uh you know anguish And humble, and so he he clearly wants there to be correction, repentance, and yet he’s his love for them to see them come back into the family of God. It to me that’s a tension um that I think is I I don’t see that managed very well in my own life and my experiences. It’s certainly not in the other circles that I uh am part of at work. We don’t do this.

Matt • 13:48
At work, if somebody’s wrong, they’re cut out.

Matt • 13:50
You know, may uh disciplined or something like that, but they’re not disciplined for restoration. They’re disciplined for correction and accountability, which are not necessarily bad things. But this correction to bring you back into the family, it’s it’s so different than what I’m used to. And I in my own experience it’s been so hard to pull off

Hannah • 14:09
Yeah. Yeah, that’s the the invitational nature of Jesus to the the whole goal is is restored relationship. um with God. That’s the whole point of Jesus’ sacrifice. So that idea of reconciliation is something rooted in Jesus, you know, that we need to use a lot of wisdom to try to figure out uh how to implement.

Matt • 14:36
Yeah, and it’s it’s such a long play, I think. You know, when there’s a situation, whatever it is, and somebody’s wrong. Well, you just want them to say that they’re wrong and then like fix it and then come back. You want it to be that that clean and that easy. And it’s not. Sometimes these things take many months, sometimes many years. You know, God is way, way more patient than we are. I like nice, clean situations, and God is way more comfortable with messy than I am.

Hannah • 15:06
Yeah.

Matt • 15:09
Yeah, so that’s one thing that struck me about the book. Just it’s it’s like this seriously ought to be like a Harvard Business School like case study.

Hannah • 15:19
It’s it’s hard to um totally make into like a concise uh case study though because there are so many paradoxes in Paul’s approach. Like, you know, I don’t know, I I think um You talk about his like confidence, his boldness, his directness, but then also his humility. And and we’ll talk more about his like boasting and his weaknesses. Um so there’s yeah, there’s a lot um It’s a very complex set of um behaviors that Paul is exhibiting and urging the church to uh emulate as well. So yeah, it would be it would be very hard to like kind of systematize this into uh like ten steps to be the best leader, you know, which we love to Everything is systematized.

Matt • 16:17
I made my whole career doing that. That’s what I get paid to do.

Hannah • 16:19
So I know, I know, but the Bible not always the doesn’t always follow that that kind of method

Matt • 16:27
All right. Challenge accepted.

Hannah • 16:29
Okay.

Matt • 16:30
No, I’m kidding. Well you tease it. Why don’t we just skip to that part? So yeah, one of the ways that Paul is able to do this is because he knows the commands and intent of Jesus. way better than maybe we do. Well certainly better than we do. Certainly better than like, you know, whoever’s writing, you know, McKinsey’s Quarterly these days. And this this paradox that you alluded to. Paul gets into it a little more in the second half of the book where he starts to spill it out, where it’s you know, especially in chapters eleven and twelve. Sort of the the context is is is somehow the the there’s these people come into the story called the super apostles. Yeah. Paul versus the super apostles. This will be an amazing Saturday morning cartoon

Hannah • 17:12
Oh sure, yeah.

Matt • 17:13
Yeah. I kinda wonder like do do the super apostles have like names? Like Batman or Aquaman or I need to know more about the super apostles. What’s happening there? Do they have certain powers? What’s happening?

Hannah • 17:26
Oh.

Matt • 17:27
Is this like the Avengers?

Hannah • 17:28
I hope so. I hope they have capes. Oh yes. That would be nice.

Matt • 17:32
Or although what’s it? The um uh the Incredibles? No capes?

Hannah • 17:36
No capes. Oh yes. Yeah.

Matt • 17:39
So maybe they don’t have capes. They’re probably wearing robes that could be like capes.

Hannah • 17:43
Oh maybe, maybe.

Matt • 17:44
Okay. Anyway, so there’s something where Paul feels like, uh probably right about this, but he feels like he’s being compared to these so-called super apostles. And the Corinthians are sort of going after or being receptive to the outreach of these so-called super apostles. And they are handsome, confident, tall. Cool beards, fancy talkers, elaborate PowerPoint print presentations. Jam and music, whatever it is, they’re fancy, and somehow the Corinthians are like, Well, we got these super apostles and they’re telling us different things than you tell us, Paul. So we think we’re gonna listen to them and not be worried about you too much. Is that okay, Paul? What do you what do you think? What do you think, Anna?

Hannah • 18:33
Yeah, well, uh Paul is kind of uh I it I it seems like he may made up that term. kind of sarcastically. This I don’t I they certainly I’m sure weren’t called the super apostles uh in real life. But Paul is like, oh you you love these leaders so much, uh that yeah, I’m sure they’re like super apostles. So uh this is definitely like an ironic or sarcastic kind of jab at um these leaders who had apparently gained some influence in the church and they were criticizing Paul’s credentials and um his leadership because he didn’t meet their expectations of what an impressive leader should look like. Like all those things you said, they seem to be very charismatic speakers or um had high status and accomplishments but Paul was one who was constantly being persecuted and suffering He uh apparently was not a very impressive public speaker that is mentioned in the text. Um But yeah, Paul is arguing that the Corinthians are evaluating these leaders based on worldly standards rather than the standards of God’s kingdom. And so we talked a bit about this last week in First Corinthians, how um the gospel radically challenges the world’s understanding of what power and honor and success look like. through the upside-down values of the kingdom of God. And so in this letter, Paul’s continuing to confront those assumptions and those values that are being adopted um from their surrounding culture. to show them this paradox of the cross, the the upside down nature of the cross. And so it’s interesting In chapter eleven, he goes on this kind of extended exercise of like ironic boasting, where he’s like listing all of his accomplishments, but his accomplishments are like Yeah, I’ve been imprisoned, I’ve been beat, I was shipwrecked, uh, I’ve suffered so much. Um, and so yeah, I think this this ironic uh sp like uh speech of all of his failures or weaknesses is really trying to totally reframe what power and influence and um success, what victory looks like in the kingdom of God compared to the world.

Matt • 21:14
Yeah. I feel like if he were to do this in our culture today, like the response from people like my daughters, like the young people, would be like weird flex. Right.

Hannah • 21:23
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt • 21:26
Because Paul’s thing about like not being impressive, like when he’s kind of reading his resume, it’s about like how many times he’s been in prison, how many times he’s been beaten half to death. Yeah. Uh, you know, how many times he’s been misunderstood. And uh, you know, it’s funny. So it’s now, I think, I guess five years ago, uh, that we did a pastor search. Uh And so it would have been about this time, you know, late fall in 2021 when we were I think we’re probably doing interviews even by then, but we would have, you know, organized uh job description and all this and we would be reading resumes. And yeah, if I got a resume that was like, here’s how many times I’ve been in prison. Here’s how many times I’ve been beaten half to death. Here is the story of me getting stoned in the public square. Yeah, that would have been a little up that I’m not gonna lie, that would have been a strange experience. I’m not sure how that far far how far that resume would have gotten through our process.

Hannah • 22:24
Yeah, yeah. And next time your your requirements should be like shipwrecked at least once. Um Yeah.

Matt • 22:34
That would be funny. Now I will say though, it’s kind of interesting. This sort of happened to us by, well I say by accident, but clearly by the power of the Holy Spirit. But we did notice um As we would get resumes and start to do interviews with people, humility really popped out to us as something that’s hard to capture in a resume, but something that really stood out to us when we talked to people. So I remember, you know, a a couple people, uh, and again I won’t name names, but we would look at the resume and be like, oh, wow, this checks a lot of boxes for us. And then we would interview them, you know, on Zoom or whatever, and we’d be like, whoa. This uh this is not the right person for us. You know, just the the yeah, I don’t want to uh misinterpret anybody’s, but like There would just be a weird confidence, but it was sort of based on like their gifting or their understanding of power struggles. You know, I’m thinking about one guy who was sort of bragging about how many elders he forced off the board. It was like, ooh, that’s probably not a thing to say to a a board that has a couple of different elders on it. So yeah. So yeah, that didn’t work. And so when we saw a candidate who, yeah, he had a a really great resume that was impressive, uh g good background, and then when we talked to him and he was incredibly humble and gracious and talked about how much he had learned from people and how much he was looking to transfer those things into it that really stood out to us and that turned out to be Matthew Nicosia.

Hannah • 24:02
Great.

Matt • 24:02
How about it? Perfect. Yeah, because at the same time you can sort of overplay the humility a little bit. Yeah. In that there’s again another resume that I’m looking at or that we looked at, and all of the language was, well, I was asked to do so and so, or I was approached to do this. You know, they were at they asked me to consider this and I prayed about it and responded, which is lovely in a sense, but I was like, Well, you’re applying for a senior pastor position. So I need to know that you can lead. I need to know that you can sort of step out a little bit and sort of see a situation and take ownership. Kind of in the way that we saw Paul in the beginning of this letter. kind of say like, hey, here’s a thing that I see and I’m responding to and I I need this I need some action to happen here. I I we kind of needed to see that too and not just somebody who was like, well, I’ll just do what you asked me to. I’m just gonna sit here. Till somebody asks me to do something. Like that’s that doesn’t play either. It kind of looks humble, but it’s th there there’s a version of what we think is humble that’s actually passive. And that’s and what Paul’s doing here is humble, but it is not passive.

Matt • 25:16
Mm-hmm.

Matt • 25:17
Which is and which is I think one of the Really fundamental things about the work of Jesus. Jesus is humble, but Jesus is the exact opposite of passive.

Hannah • 25:29
Mm-hmm. Yeah, totally.

Matt • 25:32
Yeah.

Hannah • 25:32
Yeah. There’s this other dynamic too that Paul is um brings up in chapter twelve that’s along these same lines. Um of this paradox of the cross where he starts talking about this thorn. He calls it a thorn in his flesh. We don’t know we don’t know what it is, but what’s your theory?

Matt • 25:49
What’s your theory about what a thorn is?

Hannah • 25:52
I don’t know. Maybe his bad public speaking.

Matt • 25:55
Oh, okay. I don’t know. The guy who was my discipler in uh in high school. The guy, one of the guys my early influences, uh, he thought it was an ex-girlfriend. Shout out Tom Clark, wherever you are. Yeah, I still remember. He’s like, it’s gotta be a woman.

Hannah • 26:11
I’m gonna not vote for that theory. This is probably not that one.

Matt • 26:16
I suspect you’re correct. But you know, every every time I read that passage I giggle.

Hannah • 26:20
Uh yeah. Yeah, it’s interesting. So we don’t know exactly what the thorn is, but uh apparently Paul pleaded with God to remove it Um, but God’s response instead of removing it um in chapter twelve, verse nine, is that God says, My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness. So Paul says that he’ll then boast all the more gladly of his weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then I’m content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong. I love that. What a powerful, yeah. Powerful verse there.

Matt • 26:59
That’s like an OG memory verse for me.

Hannah • 27:01
It is, yeah, me too.

Matt • 27:02
Yeah, I was probably when I first memorized that, I was maybe thirteen, fourteen.

Hannah • 27:06
Mm-hmm.

Matt • 27:07
I think I’m still learning what it actually means, but yeah, it really sung sung to me when I was that age first reading the Bible.

Hannah • 27:14
Yeah.

Matt • 27:15
Yeah.

Hannah • 27:16
Yeah, I I think about that a lot in leadership, in specifically like, you know, I I’ll I’ll prepare for the women’s Bible studies. Um and I’ll feel very unprepared. Uh or sometimes even for this podcast, I’m like, I don’t know what we’re gonna talk about. But reminding myself that it doesn’t It doesn’t matter what I am gonna say. Like, yeah, you want to do the hard work of preparing and and diligently working, you know, for the Lord, but like ultimately his power is made perfect in our weaknesses. And so when we approach these kind of things humbly with like, I’m just a vessel for you, Lord. Like work through me, speak through me. um make your power obvious because the less prepared I am and the more that I feel the Lord is speaking through me, then I’m like I then I I can never boast that it was me. Yeah. Because I didn’t feel prepared, but I feel that the Lord worked through me. So it’s obvious that it was God’s power when I felt weak. You know. Yeah. That’s when I experienced that the most. Yeah. And I have to keep reminding myself of that daily.

Matt • 28:30
Yeah. Uh you know, same. And um I situations that come up in in my home, in you know, in in church, in our small group, uh even at work. Yeah, it’s weird to sort of brag about how weak you are. Um and yet there’s so many situations where I’ll be like, okay, so here’s what I see Or here’s the situation that we face, and and I’m just not the right person for this. I can do a job, but somebody else is going to be able to do a better job here. And then that person gets the chance to contribute and shine. And those are always the times where I’m sort of happiest when somebody else gets to step into that space and do something And we might not have even known that they had that level of gifting or they had that capacity to contribute. And if I’m all about like no, it’s the Matt Sho I have to make sure that everything happens here has my name on it and that I get credit for it. Well then nobody else gets a chance to shine. Uh and nobody else gets a chance to be part of the team or or do. Yeah, um, do do something like that. And so it’s it’s that’s it’s actually my joy sometimes to be the weak link because then somebody else gets to shine and be a part of it. And that is a great joy to me.

Hannah • 29:41
Yeah. Yeah, and then Paul kind of um wraps this all together in chapter 13. He says something similar, but it’s not about himself, it’s about Jesus in verse four. Um says that Jesus was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. So we see some of that, uh, the paradox of the cross, what seemed like death and defeat for Jesus in that moment was actually God’s victory. Um, that upside-down nature of the cross and God’s kingdom Um yeah, and and just trying to figure out how we can root our lives in that concept of Jesus on the cross. And live according to those values can be really tricky and requires a lot of wisdom. But that’s what Paul is calling this church to do. Yeah. And and us as well.

Matt • 30:34
Yeah. And you know You know, to to to say that it’s a a death makes it seem very final and and but it’s like little mini deaths. Like mini mini giving up of my preference, my position, my power, my rightful claim on something. But I’m gonna let that thing die or I’m gonna I’m gonna let it kill me, so to speak. so that the power of God is made evident in this situation. I mean that happens dozens a day, dozens of times a day, hundreds of times a day, millions of times over the course of a lifetime, dying these mini deaths. that the power of God might be might have its space to to come to life in me.

Hannah • 31:15
Yeah. Yeah.

Matt • 31:17
Yeah. Paul has a handle on that much better than I do.

Hannah • 31:20
Oh yeah. Yeah.

Matt • 31:22
Yeah. Uh one more thing in Second Corinthians we want to talk about. I think it’s one of the most beautiful passages in all of scripture about what generosity looks like, especially chapters eight and nine. I know this is something you had some notes on. We talked a lot about this going through the Old Testament, especially in the Torah, about how generosity is part of the character of God. And about one of the ways that sort of marks the people of God is a loose holding of possessions and an understanding of him as an abundant source of all things. And Paul he just paints such a beautiful picture in chapters eight and nine. I’d I’d love to hear some of your thoughts about this.

Hannah • 32:00
Yeah. Um it’s interesting in chapter nine he is talking about something kind of like a practical thing, um, and it’s surrounded by maybe a bit more theological um uh arguments to support that. But he specifically talks about this financial gift that the church in Corinth promised to send to the believers in Jerusalem at the beginning of chapter nine. Um and so it’s Paul grounds that uh practical thing in uh this appeal for generosity based on God’s own uh abundance and generosity. Um specifically chapter eight uh verse it verse nine For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich. So we’re actually kind of seeing that upside-down concept again, right? Like Jesus uh poured himself out, became poor. Um So that we might become rich. And this concept of abundance and generosity, if you watched the uh generosity theme video this week that was on one of the days Um, we can see this rooted in the beginning of God’s creation in Genesis 1 and 2, of this world of abundance, that he provides everything that humanity needs to flourish. Um And he invites humans to trust in his generosity and share in that abundance with each other. But um Genesis three, when humans don’t trust God’s provision and his wisdom. Then there’s this uh mindset of scarcity, believing that there’s not enough, um, that we need to kind of secure resources for ourselves, even at the expense of others. Um, so we see that throughout the whole biblical story, but Jesus is demonstrating the the totally opposite mindset, this different way of living according to generosity, self giving love. ultimately culminating in his own death on a cross. Um so yeah, Jesus’ death is the ultimate expression of God’s generous love. And so Paul is uh encouraging the Corinthians here to give by inviting them to reflect Jesus’ character of generosity. Um yeah, which frees us from that scarcity mindset and enables us to become generous people ourselves. So that’s what stood out to me in these couple of chapters.

Matt • 34:44
Yeah, there’s a uh a couple notes on that. One is he clearly feels no uh hesitation to ask them to share abundantly with people that they’ve never met. And likely never will meet. Uh, and yet he’s alluding to hey, you’re part of the same family. Uh, you know, the faith that you have in Christ Jesus is rooted in this ethnic people and It’s uh he doesn’t quite use the the language of like you owe them a debt, but like it’s it’s proper for you to share them. Even though you don’t know them The bonds that you have, even without knowing each other, are such that this is an appropriate thing to do. I think that’s really interesting. Uh and but you do have to have that mindset that you talk about about sort of like it’s all gods. God has given freely. And so if we have a lot relative to somebody else, it’s up totally appropriate for us to to share. And that’s kind of the point of it. It’s like the expectation is of somebody who has a lot to be able to share that with somebody who has less. Yeah, Paul paints this not just as um like he doesn’t paint this as something extraordinary or like this isn’t getting them brownie points. Like this is supposed to be normal. Uh among the churches of God.

Hannah • 35:56
Yeah.

Matt • 35:57
Yeah.

Hannah • 35:57
Totally.

Matt • 35:58
Yeah. And then my other note is you’ll be able to see this, but if they’re looking on this uh Let’s see. Can you see that? There you go. So do you remember our old friend Lilia?

Hannah • 36:09
Yeah.

Matt • 36:09
So if you remember Lilia, who used to be part of our church, she lives in Georgia now. We miss her very much. But Lilia started a little tradition among some of us in our church. that at the beginning every year she would uh uh decide on a word that was gonna be her theme for the year. Uh and so I’ve borrowed that uh practice from Lily over the years. So my word for two thousand twenty six is abundant

Hannah • 36:31
Wow.

Matt • 36:32
Yes, I’ve been trying to live this year as if God really is abundant. And so my reference verse is what’s written on the other side of this card. Um and it’s Psalm 6511. Is it okay if I read this, Hannah? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. It says, you crown the year with your bounty. Your wagon tracks overflow with abundance. I love the idea that like the wagon tracks have sort of made a rut in the road and like when the rain comes it just piles up and it spills over to that. I just love that idea of God’s blessing and God’s presence and God’s generosity to us causing an overflow such that the wagon tracks overflow. I suppose it’s a little muddy to drive on, but it’s still a a fun, fun picture. So yeah, God. It’s one of the things that I think about sometimes. It’s not just that God provides abundance. God is abundance. You know, his very self is generous and life-giving and He contains all that we need. So to to somehow hoard the things that he shares with us and not share them with others, especially those who are in need, is very, it’s like it’s anti His character. Yeah. It’s you can’t really say that you follow Jesus if you’re not willing to share your resources and be generous with others. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which I know hits a nerve with a lot of people. Uh I think especially in the United States in the year two thousand twenty-six or uh, you know, these times, people get very particular about Taxes and you know, thing of yes, there’s time and place for all that, but this kind of hoarding or this this attitude of this is mine and I get to keep it and Yes, there are conversations to be had about what marginal tax rates should be. Oh blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I can I can hear these voices in my head. But kind of this loose holding of possessions because everything belongs to God and he wants to use us in this. I think it’s a really important part of being a follower of Jesus.

Hannah • 38:29
Yeah. I’m curious as your word of the year, what has that looked like throughout your year, like maybe from a practical standpoint? Have you learned something? practically about how do how do you practice this word of abundance?

Matt • 38:46
Yeah so I’m trying to be a little bit more forward like when I get asked uh about financial needs. So I’m trying to make my default answer to be yes instead of no. So in st when when the ask comes to me, well like yeah, I’m gonna do this instead of Let me consider this. Is this does this meet my criteria or filter? Now it doesn’t mean I always say yes. Sometimes we say no because reasons, whatever it seems appropriate, but I’m trying to switch so that my default is yes. Nice. And I think another thing is like I just and I and and full confession, it’s not like this was an area of anxiety or struggle for me anyway. But I I have even seen some movement. Like I’m just not really that worried about resources, money. Um, you know, we’re starting to think I’m at an age where we can start to think about what retirement looks for us as a family. Um and you know, hopefully it’s in nine, ten years, something like that. And so yeah, we have to start putting the numbers together to to see if there’s how we might decide that. But I’m I’m not it doesn’t cause anxiety for me. Like I I see that as a great joy. Um that whatever the Lord has for us, then yeah, that that might decide where we live, all that kind of stuff. But Yeah, and then also it’s just to remember that he’s the abundance, not the money or the shirt collection or even, you know, fun things like vacations. Like he’s he’s the experience. And to so to really enjoy him. That if I’m really going to experience abundance, it’s not because I have a great book collection or drink awesome coffee Which I too. Um it’s because I enjoy him. And so that’s really been the place uh where I’ve tried to put my focus.

Hannah • 40:28
Cool.

Matt • 40:29
Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate you asking. Yeah, not to put you on the spot, but what uh what does abundance look like for you?

Hannah • 40:36
Oh well it’s not my word of the year.

Matt • 40:38
So Yeah, so lower lower stakes for you.

Hannah • 40:42
Um Yeah. Yeah, I think like I mean we saw this so much with like COVID, people hoarding stuff for themselves. And it’s so easy for myself to get in that mindset of personal safety and security and making sure I’m comfortable And it doesn’t really matter what other people are experiencing because, you know, as long as I’m good and my family’s good, then like, you know, it’s just so easy to fall into that that mindset. So I think Yeah, I don’t know. I I think f I’m maybe it’s not always just financial I think that’s the first thing that comes to our mind when we think about generosity is being generous with our money, but also sometimes it actually requires more to be generous with our time or our energy. Yeah. Um, especially if we are financially comfortable, like it it doesn’t hurt us to give financially because and we don’t really feel the effects of it, but m especially in our culture of like busyness, um, it can actually cost me more to dedicate time to somebody who needs it.

Matt • 41:59
Yeah.

Hannah • 42:00
Um so I don’t know, I’ve also been trying to think of abundance or generosity in terms of What does someone actually need from me beyond just money, but my time or my energy that I can invest in somebody? And doing that in little small scale ways just throughout my day with my coworkers or friends or family. Um Yeah. Doesn’t always have to be a big act of generosity.

Matt • 42:29
Yeah.

Hannah • 42:30
Small thing small consistent things are always more important than I love that so much. Vaccasional big things.

Matt • 42:36
Love that. Yeah, that’s actually something we’ve talked about as elders at our church. Our church is incredibly generous financially. Um I’d say the last especially COVID and and since then, every time that we have made an ask that involved finances, our church has gone way above and beyond. uh our our Japan trip last year, we more than fully funded that trip. Um and that was all just that wasn’t out of the church budget. That was people making the point to uh to give and be generous with that. And it was amazing. And yet we do see a struggle where we don’t always have the volunteers that we need for our kids service or our setup team. And that that’s been a point of challenge and Yeah, we’ve chosen to approach that uh sort of on the individual level and sort of make the ask of people and tap people on the shoulder about that. But I do think that’s a little bit of a growth area for us as a church. I think, you know, in the area that we live in. You know, not all of us, but many of us. It’s kind of easy to give financially. It’s a button on our phone and we may or may not miss that money. Um and there’s very little friction between if I want to give to something or somebody makes that ask. They can have that money in seconds because of the technology we have. But to your point, if somebody asks me to take a meal to someone or uh watch their kids for a couple hours or help them change apartments or something like that. That’s that’s a a bigger deal to a lot of people and that’s where we do see some friction. And hey, I’m in this too. I’m including myself in this, but I do think that’s an area where we we have some room to grow as a church.

Matt • 44:08
Yeah.

Matt • 44:08
And so I soft challenge for everybody who hears this. Let’s let’s grow together. Um it’s relatively easy to give money. It’s important. You know, Paul talks about that directly here. Jesus talks about that. But giving of yourselves is really the thing that Paul calls us all to, and Jesus calls us all to. And I I hope we’re all Growing in our yes in that area.

Hannah • 44:29
Yeah.

Matt • 44:30
Yeah. All right, well 2nd Corinthians. What an amazing, what an amazing book.

Hannah • 44:36
Yeah, I really like Second Corinthians.

Matt • 44:39
It’s very different than so many of the books that we’ve read. And yet I think there’s some really interesting kind of things to wrestle with in there.

Hannah • 44:47
Yeah, and some very like beautiful verses that are worth memorizing.

Matt • 44:53
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Well, why don’t we close it up here? Can you pray for us?

Hannah • 44:59
Yeah.

Matt • 44:59
Let’s do it.

Hannah • 45:01
Lord, we just thank you so much for your word and for this beautiful letter of love. And we pray that you would teach us. to live according to some of these upside-down values that Paul reveals here in this letter that um come from the the paradox of the cross, the upside down value system of your kingdom, um a kingdom of abundance and generosity, a kingdom of humility and self-sacrifice, self-giving love. And and a a kingdom that that seems like weakness and defeat to our world, to our culture. Um, I pray that you would Teach us what it looks like to be humble but yet confident in you and in your truth, and to demonstrate that balance of love and truth that Paul demonstrates here. Teach us to boast not in ourselves and not in the things that this world tells us we should boast in, but to boast in you and to boast in our weaknesses so that your power would be made perfect. Um Yeah. Show us what it looks like to be your vessel. That you would work through us and show your power and wisdom and glory to this world through our humility and through the the upside-down values um that we can demonstrate in our everyday lives. Um and we pray all this in Jesus’ name. Amen.

Matt • 46:40
Amen. Thanks so much, Hannah. Thanks, Matt