Bible in A Year: Episode 36

Intro • 00:00
Welcome to Read the Bible in a Year with Matt and Hannah, a weekly podcast from Fairfax Bible Church where we explore scripture together, uncovering its themes and design patterns. We’re glad you’re here. Now, here are your hosts, Matt and Hannah. And we are here.

Matt • 00:17
It is episode number 36 of Read the Bible in a Year with Matt and Hannah. Um, Hannah, I happen to notice on today’s, as we’re recording this reading plan, today is day 300.

Hannah • 00:28
Oh, nice.

Matt • 00:30
That’s kind of exciting.

Hannah • 00:32
Yeah.

Matt • 00:32
Yeah.

Hannah • 00:33
We’re getting there.

Matt • 00:34
We are getting there. So it is episode 36. Um I don’t have a cool jersey number, but I do have a couple possible fun facts.

Hannah • 00:42
Okay.

Matt • 00:43
Are you ready?

Hannah • 00:44
Yeah, I’m ready.

Matt • 00:45
Uh first of all, a shout out to your dad for the Walter Payton thing. That was still I’m I’m still blown away by that.

Hannah • 00:51
Okay. Two episodes later.

Matt • 00:53
I know. Sorry.

Hannah • 00:53
Um still raving.

Matt • 00:55
Okay, so here is here’s a couple fun facts about the number 36. Uh one is I’m not sure that I really understand what this means, but you’re more of a math person uh than I do. It is the rare square triangular number, meaning it is both a square number Uh it’s six six times six is thirty-six. And a triangular number that is the sum of integers from one to eight. It’s a square. It’s a square and a triangular.

Hannah • 01:29
Why do they call it a triangular? Number.

Matt • 01:33
I wish you hadn’t asked me that question. The sum of the sum of integers from one to eight. So one plus two. I won’t do the math here. Okay, never mind that. Then uh how about this? Uh if you are playing roulette, the numbers go from one to thirty-six.

Hannah • 01:52
Okay.

Matt • 01:54
Yeah. Have you ever played roulette?

Hannah • 01:56
No.

Matt • 01:56
Uh I haven’t played in a real casino. I’ve only played at like my friend’s casino night or something like that.

Hannah • 02:02
Okay.

Matt • 02:02
I’m not sure I really understand everything that’s happening on a roulette wheel. It looks it looks so cool in movies though.

Hannah • 02:09
Yeah, it does. Yeah. That’s my only concept of roulette is from movies.

Matt • 02:18
Ah, I love it. Okay, so episode 36. Okay, so before we get into it, I have two updates.

Hannah • 02:24
All right.

Matt • 02:25
Uh one is uh this past weekend I went to visit my daughter Lexi down in Chapah Hill, North Carolina

Hannah • 02:31
Nice.

Matt • 02:32
And I told her we had mentioned her on the podcast last week, uh but then and you said she was the best. And then I said, Well, she doesn’t listen to the podcast, she’s not gonna hear this, and you said, well then she’s not the best. And she protested vociferously, and she said, I do listen to the podcast. I happen to be a couple episodes behind, but I do listen. So make sure you clear the record on that one. So Lexi, welcome. And I guess that makes her the best, right?

Hannah • 03:04
Yeah, okay, yeah. Lexi is the best again. I’m sorry that I said that you weren’t the best in the last episode.

Matt • 03:11
Well, you know, that’s because I prompted you. It’s me. She’s mad at me. She’s not mad at you, Hannah.

Hannah • 03:15
Okay, good.

Matt • 03:16
Okay. Um so yes, so Lexi’s back in Hannah’s good graces. Uh hi Lexi. It was lovely to see you. Thanks for letting me come hang out with you. And also uh Syracuse beat UNC in football. That was amazing, so She was sad about that, but I was happy. Anyway. Um now, so my second update is uh last week as we were last episode as we were talking about Romans, I mentioned that there was a book I was curious about, but I had not actually read and procured. Um uh it’s called Reading Romans Backwards by Scott McKnight. Surely you remember we talked about this.

Hannah • 03:50
Yeah. Did you actually did you see in the devotional section there was like a little reference to it subtly?

Matt • 03:55
I think I maybe I might have missed it.

Hannah • 03:57
Like in the devotional section it said something about uh we start towards the end we start to see what the actual problems are, which is why some people recommend reading Romans backwards.

Matt • 04:07
I d okay yes I did see that. While I arrived from my trip to Chapel Hill, North Carolina, where I visited my daughter Lexi, who is the best Um, or at least tied for the best with her sister Allie. Uh Pastor Matthew sent me the book.

Hannah • 04:21
Wow. Why didn’t he send me the book?

Matt • 04:23
Uh maybe because you didn’t talk about it. Maybe this is a chance. Of course you can borrow it. Uh but like are you trying to what’s a book you want? Let’s If we just say things we want on the podcast, people get it for us.

Hannah • 04:38
Do they show up at our door?

Matt • 04:40
Rich opportunity.

Hannah • 04:42
Okay, let me think about it. And next next episode maybe. I want to use my my uh request w wisely. You can look for like some eighty eighty dollar. There there is a textbook that I want that’s like sixty dollars they’ve held off on you know okay so

Matt • 05:01
Okay. It is budget season at church, so you know. All right, so updates on that. I’ve never had it happen where I said, oh, it’d be really cool if I had such and such a thing, and it just show up.

Hannah • 05:16
Wow.

Matt • 05:17
When I worked in radio back in the day, this would happen to like the the guys on the air. They would be like, Oh, yeah. Thanks for thanks to Joe for bringing in pizza. I was like, man, that must be the life. You just say I’m hungry on the radio and somebody brings you a pizza. Yeah. So so I’ve now had this experience. And I can say It feels pretty good. So thank you, Pastor Matthew. Uh it made me laugh, first of all, and it’s very, very kind. So thank you.

Hannah • 05:42
Nice.

Matt • 05:42
All right. So now let’s think about how we can leverage this as power for Hannah. Alright, well we started Romans last time. I think we wanna we’re now in the meat of it, so we’ll we’ll talk more about that. I think in our reading plan we touch on First Corinthians, but we’re gonna save that for the next episode. Uh so it’s Romans, Romans, Romans. So uh tell us a little bit uh remind us what we talked about last week and uh and what do we what are we setting the table for this time?

Hannah • 06:11
Yeah, well we just Started the first four chapters last week, we kind of briefly touched on. I know we want to talk about a little more broadly the structure or the logic of the letter. So I won’t go into it too much because I think we’re gonna do that here in a second, but what we discussed last week was about how um Paul first starts the letter by setting up what the problem is before he tells us that we need a solution. Because you know, if he’s going to tell us about the gospel, he first wants to convince us that we need the solution of the gospel. So uh the first four chapters in particular are setting up The idea that uh all of humanity is trapped in sin and needs to be rescued, and that includes uh the Gentiles, but also uh Israel itself Which you know there’s a little bit uh of of disagreement about as God’s chosen people if they really need something different than what they have already been doing according to the Torah. So why don’t we do we want to jump into kind of the logic or the structure and we can talk about what we’re gonna see Um and the rest of the book?

Matt • 07:27
Yeah, I think so. And obviously at at our church, uh Pastor Matthew’s been preaching through this almost all of So there’s a lot of rich detail. We’re sort of skimming the surface here. If you want some more detail, uh or what it what what is that about? Like why didn’t they talk about this thing happening in chapter three? You can go back and listen to the sermon series. Um, so we’re taking a little bit more of a macro view of it or an uber view of it. But yeah, I think and yeah, I feel f feel free to jump in and correct me if I say anything that’s not quite right, but I think they And I think of all of Paul’s letters, this is the one that sort of Does the most to make a specific set of arguments. And so sort of following that train of thought is is helpful for the book. But as you mentioned, the book starts with We’re all in a pickle. Um, much like we saw with in the Hebrew scriptures in the Old Testament, each of us, uh, in the human race, we tend to do what is right in our own eyes. We tend to define good and evil for ourselves. We do that as individuals, we do that as people groups, we do that as the human race, and it just doesn’t end well. More than just it having bad consequences for me or my family. it it it creates this spiral that brings the whole human condition down. And so what’s to be done about that? And you have this one group, uh, the Jewish people who are like, Well, we have a solution. The the one true God gave us these rules and these ceremonies and these rituals, and in his chosen place, Jerusalem, there’s a temple where you can do these things so just everybody just follow our laws and do these things it’ll be good and then you have these gentile people who are like Well, we’ve heard about these this guy, Jesus, um, but we don’t know anything about your rituals and laws. We would love to follow Jesus. We’re attracted to that, and we believe that But what do we do with all these rituals and laws? And so one of the disagreements that Paul is sort of looking into or looking to sort of um settle a little bit. And his logic is it is essentially whatever your ethnic origin, you’re dead and you’re sin. If you’re a Gentile, that’s a fairly easy argument to make because you don’t know anything about God’s rules or God’s expectations. You have to be taught everything. And the Jewish people though don’t think that you’re off the hook because you had these things and our ancestors still did not live up to it. So whether you don’t have anything at all Yes, you need Jesus, or even if you think you have this figured out, it’s really only through Jesus that we can experience this connection, this re-establishment with God and anything. And then he sort of goes through some of the classic um sort of Jewish archetypes or Jewish uh things. So he goes through the Torah, he goes through the lineage to Abraham, he goes through some of the ritual things and says It is only Jesus who gives meaning to these things and fulfills these things. So just loving the law for itself or loving a ritual for itself isn’t it doesn’t do what you think it does. Uh and so there’s no particular benefit to bringing these over to the Gentiles because it’s incomplete. It’s and he’s sort of magnifying the person and work of Jesus. And that’s sort of the argument that he wants to make through the the book.

Hannah • 10:49
Yeah, I think so, yeah. And and not even just that following the Torah uh isn’t good enough, but like Paul really emphasizes you had the Torah but you failed to follow it.

Matt • 11:02
Yeah.

Hannah • 11:03
Uh which is just revealing your sinful nature even more. And uh because you did have the Torah, you’re even more responsible to have known uh what the Lord required of you, um, but you still failed to do it. So yeah, but even if they were perfect at following the Torah, uh, you know. It’s still not still not the entry point.

Matt • 11:35
rules about how to behave. There is so much about Torah that is pointing to the work of Jesus. as an unclean person to live in the presence of a holy God. You know, that’s hardly I mean there’s ceremonial rules that you have to do. But those are all pointing forward to the work of Jesus. The description of the sacrifices, you know, you need a spotless lamb. You need uh when you’re making the other sacrifices that are doves, they need to be like of a certain quality. So it’s it’s telling you what God’s going to do in the future. It’s not just a sort of set of behavioral rules. It’s describing what the work of coming into fellowship with God is.

Hannah • 12:26
Mm-hmm.

Matt • 12:27
So so it’s all well and good. Yes. You could say that you followed the laws, but it’s even if you did well you didn’t, but even if you did There’s so many of the laws that aren’t really about your behavior. They’re they’re pointing forward to the work that God is going to do in Jesus. I think. I think I’m capturing that right.

Hannah • 12:47
Yeah. Yeah, and then the the logic of the letter continues with all of this really dense theology. That’s like chapters 1 through 11. And then uh chapter 12 through the end is uh turns a lot more practical So how do we actually apply this really dense theology from chapters one through eleven into the specific context that the Roman church was facing, which we talked last week? there’s a lot of division between the Jews and the Gentiles. And so that’s what a lot of chapters twelve through fifteen or maybe even sixteen, where we see the list of all the people together um starts to play out.

Matt • 13:32
Yeah. Um well let’s get into a couple things. Let’s let’s pick it up in chapter five. Um and then one of the things that I think is is really interesting, I mean, talk about sort of going back to the origin story. It doesn’t get much more origin story than Adam.

Hannah • 13:47
No.

Matt • 13:48
I mean Adam’s I mean you could talk about Abraham, but Adam’s even older than Abraham. You know, Abraham is on what chapter 12, so that’s gonna be what page 40 or so in your Bible. Adam’s page one.

Hannah • 13:59
Well, maybe page two.

Matt • 14:01
Page two, sure. Yeah. Um yeah, and so I think there’s this beautiful kind of illustration. I love the way that Paul compares and contrasts. um sort of the what what the what we see Adam and Eve do in the garden. He names Adam. And then what what the work of Jesus is, sort of Jesus undoing. the failures of Adam, where you know if sin came into the world through a one man, then victory over sin comes through the one man. So there’s this comparing between the two and how For all of Adam’s failures, Jesus is the undoing and uh sort of reclaiming of those things that I think is really interesting and beautiful.

Hannah • 14:39
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, and Adam, I mean, the the Hebrew name Adam, Adam, literally means humanity. So Adam is representative of all of humanity. And so his you know, Adam and Eve’s uh failure and their decision to to define good and evil in their own terms rather than trust in God’s wisdom is the reality in the nature of all of humanity. Um and so that contrast that Paul makes there is about Adam’s original failure, but it’s also about ours. You know? Yeah. Yeah.

Matt • 15:20
Yeah. Yeah. So when it says Adam, it includes you and me. Yeah, because we’re part of humanity. So I love how he says, um, you know, the uh kind of picking up in what verse uh what is it? Verse 14, he says, Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace that one man, Jesus Christ, abounded for many. So uh and the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin, for judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reign through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. So I I love that. Even though you know this catastrophic failure, um, you know, God’s heart is to rescue us and save us, and it’s it’s through the work of Jesus that he does that. So it’s it it just shows that much more. what de Jesus’ death and resurrection accomplished for us. I know it makes for a um you know in the reading of it, uh like we did in the gospels, you know, you you can read the accounts and see that. But I love how Paul is saying It goes so much more deeper than just a sequence of events. There’s a lot of sort of cosmic reality that’s happening there that I think is really interesting.

Hannah • 16:58
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, and going back all the way to Adam, I think, helps with this conversation that Paul’s trying to have. that it’s not just about the covenant people of Israel, but of all of humanity. Um so like you said, bringing it back to that cosmic view. Um yeah, I think that’s a a cool uh argument that Paul lays out there.

Matt • 17:23
Yeah, and as we talked about last week, Paul’s Probably better equipped to do that than almost anybody because he’s just so steeped in the Hebrew scriptures. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now, as we turn to chapter 6, there’s an interesting pattern you wanted to call to our attention. It has to do with baptism. So tell us what we’re looking at here.

Hannah • 17:42
Yeah, so we just read in chapter five that um God’s gift of grace through Jesus leads to life. And that his grace abounds even more where sin increases. And so when we turn the page to chapter six, Paul is like, I just want to clarify, just to be sure. I’m not saying that you should sin more just so grace will abound more.

Matt • 18:09
I have heard people say that. Have you heard that

Hannah • 18:12
No.

Matt • 18:13
I have yeah. Like I mean it was more when I was younger when like somebody would be like, oh you know, I I had this sin, but then God’s forgiveness was just so great and they’d be like So if I sin again, it doesn’t matter ’cause I’m gonna have that great experience again. Uh we had to be like, wait, what, hold nope, don’t do that. Yeah, I’ve had people literally say these words.

Hannah • 18:33
So I guess I’ve heard I’ve heard versions of that, but it’s uh yeah, it’s less intentional. It’s not like, oh, I’m gonna sin on purpose so that I’ll receive grace.

Matt • 18:42
I haven’t heard that. I have.

Hannah • 18:44
Really?

Matt • 18:44
Yeah, you’d be surprised.

Hannah • 18:45
But yeah, I have heard somebody say that. Wow, yeah. Well, I mean Paul says right here, by no means. By no means, yeah. Yeah, so um He goes on right after that to explain baptism and how baptism is this uh expression of how we have died to sin. uh and been raised with Christ into new life. And so through baptism, uh we join Jesus in his death, we participate in his death. um putting to death our old humanity, our old destructive way of life and our sin, and then we rise with Jesus, we participate in his resurrection into this new life and a new humanity, uh, with freedom from sin, which means freedom to love God and love others. Um and so Yeah, baptism expresses that we’re actually participating in the death and resurrection of Christ. It’s something that Jesus did for us, but we actually also get to participate in it, which is uh a crazy thing to try to wrap your mind around. And then we previously talked about um baptism being connected with the Exodus story and that that pattern. And so here Paul makes this connection to that baptism is passing through the waters. It’s leaving slavery behind, just like Israel did uh in the Exodus, and then entering into new life on the other side of that. Um so yeah, really cool pattern that we see there.

Matt • 20:29
Now, I’ve we may have talked about this before, but you know, baptism doesn’t show up a lot in the Old Testament. I feel like maybe toward the end of the exile we get some hints that they’re doing something that looks like baptism. Um but because I remember talking about how it’s kind of a mini picture of like going through the Red Sea and go passing through the chaotic waters. I remember that. Um so it’s kind of interesting, like I guess maybe this is some research I have to do, but like where did baptism come from? Like who who were the first people to get baptized? Because when we when we open up the gospels, it’s already a fairly routinely practiced thing. John the Baptist, I mean, it’s in his name, it’s a descriptor of him, that or sometimes he’s called John the Baptizer. So baptize bapti baptism I can’t talk. Um Baptism’s kind of a thing, but it seemed to have happened sort of behind the scenes a little bit.

Hannah • 21:25
Yeah. Well, I think the origin is from these like ritual washings that we see in the Old Testament. Um, like for purification washing. Um and then I do think that John the Baptist is doing something pretty unique. Um, like there were variations of baptism before him, but but not in the way that he was doing it. Which was this like anticipation for the Messiah, for repentance. So I think what John was doing was actually pretty new for for him. Yeah. But but rooted in this idea of purification and preparation to enter into God’s presence from like ritual washings in the old testament.

Matt • 22:15
Yeah. Yeah, it’s so interesting. Yeah, ’cause and baptism is another one of those things where in the scriptures it seems like it’s such a big deal. Um, like people actually are uh they have to r they risk themselves a little bit. You know, I’m thinking about the Ethiopian eunuch in in Acts and a a couple people where there’s such an urgency. uh to become baptized. Um, you know, Cornelius when Peter goes to see him. Cornelius is like, hey, what’s why can’t all of me and my household be baptized? like right now and and Peter esta does it. But I I mean and and some of this is, you know, the role that I have at our church. When we talk to people about baptism, there’s a little lack of urgency with it that I experience in some people. Right. And um And they’re like, well, what’s it for? And you know, I go through the spiel and I or spiel I I explain, much like, you know, the conversation that we have, they were like Well yeah, but do I have to? I was like, Well I guess you don’t have to, but why wouldn’t you want to? So and what is it about baptism that somebody like Coronel or so that eunuch or um you know so many of the early Jesus followers Could not wait to have this experience, could not wait to identify with Jesus in this way, could not wait for the ritual cleansing, could not wait. to have this experience. And yet so many people in our culture are like, meh, it doesn’t feel like that big a deal to me. Like w w what am I missing in explaining it to them? And like what are we missing that the spirit has for us? I it’s just something that I think about

Hannah • 23:45
Yeah. Yeah. And there’s a lot of other Christian traditions that um emphasize baptism in different ways and with more urgency too. So I don’t know. Maybe there’s something to learn from other Christian traditions with that too.

Matt • 24:02
Yeah. And I don’t want to confuse people. At our church we do not Teach that you um that baptism is strictly speaking necessary for salvation. It’s not the act of being baptized that saves you. It is the work of Jesus that saves you. But it’s also not nothing, right? It it’s it’s actually a really big deal. It is a command in scripture. Jesus uh uh commands us to to go through baptism and the early church thought it was a super big deal And it was considered something with some urgency and something that you would do very, very early, if not right away, when you decided to follow Jesus. And so it feels like it feels like we’ve lost something along the way.

Hannah • 24:41
Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

Matt • 24:44
Yeah. There you go. Matt’s rant about baptism. So if you’re listening to this and you haven’t been baptized yet, you know who you are. Come on. Come on. Pastor Matthew loves to do baptisms. Loves it. It’s his favorite thing. Even uh because Easter Sunday this year we did baptisms and it was like, you probably remember it was pouring down rain.

Hannah • 25:06
He’s like, we’re doing it. Yeah.

Matt • 25:11
So let’s go. All right. So people if you haven’t been baptized, then come find me at find me at church this week. We’ll have a little chat and um Yeah, we’ll get the pull out. We’ll dunk you. Yeah, this is a big deal. We’ll do it. Uh later in chapter six Thanks. Uh you found one of our old friend themes, a little bit of a play on the two paths. And I confess I did not this didn’t pop to me when I read it, but when you described it to me as we were putting our notes together, it was like, oh, that is interesting. I I want to hear more about this.

Hannah • 25:40
Yeah, so um after this passage about baptism, then Paul again is like Again, just in case you misunderstood, if we’re uh under grace rather than the law, does that mean we can keep sinning? He asks like the another rhetorical question. And I think this is verse 15, chapter six, verse 15. And again, he’s like, by no means. So he’s like really trying to make sure that you know. uh what he’s what he is and is not saying here. Um and so then he starts talking about this image of slavery. So when we um give ourselves over to something in or we obey something. Um then we become its slave. And so Paul describes salvation as a change of masters. So we We’re enslaved to sin, but now we belong to God. And we um he also uses the phrase slaves to righteousness, um, which is interesting, both slaves to God and to his righteousness. And so freedom from sin means freedom to practice righteousness. Um, and to live in the love of God, the way that He has created us to live in His love and forgiveness. And so uh this um continues the Exodus pattern speaking of

Matt • 27:03
Freedom from slavery. Yes. Okay.

Hannah • 27:06
And then this pattern of the two paths of life and death that we’ve been talking about throughout the Old Testament. Um There are these kind of two different masters that you can serve. One is sin, which leads down the path. to death and then the other is God which leads down the path of eternal life uh we as we see in verse 23. that the wages of sin is death, but eternal life is the gift of God. So it’s at at the end of the path or or out maybe, you know, all the way through the path is life. Because we’re currently Living eternal life here and now. Um, yeah, so I saw a little bit of those two paths between the the difference of the two masters and the life and death that that they offer.

Matt • 27:55
Yeah, you know, in the Hebrew scriptures the metaphor was often a tree, uh, or it could be um uh like when i’m thinking about mo when moses was on the hills and he was like on that side is death but the the contrast is always between death and life You know, if you do this, if you kind of go down that road, or if you eat from that tree, or stand over there on that side, it’s gonna be death, but if you stand on that side, it’s gonna be life. So yeah, it definitely feels like Paul’s work in that. Only his his metaphor or his The architecture that he uses for that is a little bit different than what we’ve seen before. He’s using this sort of slave paradigm, which is really interesting. Um Yeah, I don’t know that we’ve seen in well, I guess we did, because you know in in Leviticus there was the the talk about the Jubilee and the releasing of slaves. So we’re we’re familiar with that as a concept. But this idea that I’m a slave to sin. is um that’s more explicit than I think we’ve seen in the scriptures so far.

Hannah • 28:53
Yeah. You know what I thought was super interesting is that in chapter eight it describes creation itself as being uh a slave or or um having bondage to corruption.

Matt • 29:09
That is interesting.

Hannah • 29:10
Yeah.

Matt • 29:10
Tell me more.

Hannah • 29:13
So this is like chapter 8, verses 19 through 22. Um is that creation was subjected to futility, not willingly. but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption, and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God So like not only does Jesus allow us to receive freedom, but His salvation is also cosmic.

Matt • 29:48
Yeah.

Hannah • 29:49
Like he’s setting all of creation free from its bondage to this corruption and decay. the broken world that we live in is also being set free through his salvation of humanity. Because humanity’s rebellion in the garden also Affected all of creation and sent sin and death and decay into the world. And so that is also being redeemed And um and will be part of the restor ultimate restoration that we’re still waiting for is for all of humanity to be restored, but also all of creation.

Matt • 30:30
New creation.

Hannah • 30:31
Yeah.

Matt • 30:32
Yeah. Yeah. I was uh Yeah, I was thinking about a couple episodes back when you talked about when Jesus was on the cross and he said, Today you’ll be with me in paradise to the thief on the cross and how the word paradise means garden.

Hannah • 30:45
Mm-hmm.

Matt • 30:54
It’s all gonna be made new. Everything that Sin touched is gonna get restored, cleaned up, and made even better than it was before.

Hannah • 31:04
Yeah.

Matt • 31:04
And we’re we’re part of that story, and as we’ve talked about, sometimes we Run the risk of reducing the gospel because we essentially frame it as if it’s my get out of jail card or it’s my um It’s my train ticket or plane ticket to heaven. Which it’s not not that it’s not that, but that’s only really part of the story. The story is God making all things new. Including me. Uh through through the work uh through the death and resurrection of Jesus. So it’s it’s it’s much, much bigger story than I think sometimes we think about. And you’ve uh pointed out a fantastic example.

Hannah • 31:41
Yeah. Yeah, we do tend to make salvation very individualized, which is like uh a very small way to look at the the impact of salvation and of God’s purposes and plans because yeah the restoration of all things all of humanity all of creation is like far beyond we could ever imagine and is gonna be so much better than just my personal individual salvation of like avoiding hell and going to heaven. Like that’s a very narrow way to think about it

Matt • 32:15
Yeah.

Hannah • 32:16
Yeah.

Matt • 32:16
Which not that I’m not mindful of that and not that I’m not grateful for that.

Hannah • 32:20
Praise the Lord that He has rescued me.

Matt • 32:23
Uh and that I get to experience forgiveness of sin and that I get to be in heaven with him. Thank you for my get out of jail free card. Thank you. Thank you, Lord. Thank you. But if I just if I let the story stop there, if it’s or if that’s the only part of the story that I’m reading, I’m missing so much more. um that I think God has for me.

Hannah • 32:44
Yeah, totally.

Matt • 32:45
Yeah. So I do, you know, it’s interesting, kind of between chapters six and eight are these famous uh chapters about how Paul wrestles with sin and this contrast uh between being a slave to sin and being a slave to righteousness. Um and it’s so weird. You know, Paul at this point has been a believer for a long time. He’s super smart about scriptures. And sometimes I’ll read these and I don’t know about you and I’ll be like Well goodness, if Paul wrestles with sin like this, w what what am I supposed to do? You know, I’m not I’m not a super Christian like Paul is. Um so I’ve sometimes I find a little bit of comfort in this. I’m like, okay. It’s if if Paul’s sort of wrestling with this or Paul feels kind of that tug, that sort of same temptation that is still mindful for him. I was like, okay, so this it it normalizes a little bit for me. It helps me to be a little bit less self-condeming about it. Um, you know, this is something uh that I have been thinking about a lot, you know, as um you know, somebody who has a uh leadership role in a church and when I’m talking to individuals. just about sort of sin patterns that they have. This is, you know, one thing that I think about. A lot of times you will hear somebody say You know, I I just feel like I can’t help it. I feel like I have to do this thing. And we have to go back to scripture and remind ourselves, you know, yeah, we were slaves. So there was a point where, yeah, we didn’t have any agency. It’s what a slave is, is somebody who doesn’t have any permission or agency to make their own choices. But in Jesus we’re set free. We’re not slaves. So when that sin is pulling on you or you find yourself in that familiar place where It just feels like you don’t have any other choice but to do that thing that you know God hates, that you know is gonna make you miserable. Just reminding ourselves. I certainly find myself doing this. God, remind me, I’m not a slave to this thing. I’m not a slave to sin. I have freedom here. I have the freedom to choose you, even in a moment where I’m feeling that pressure so intensely.

Hannah • 34:46
Yeah. Yeah, and it is kind of hard for us to understand the what seems like kind of a a paradox of Paul does actually say that we’re slaves to God now. Yeah. That he’s our master. But his slavery to God is the most free you could ever be.

Matt • 35:08
Yeah.

Hannah • 35:09
Yeah. So tr trying to understand that uh seemingly uh uh contradictory idea. It’s a little diff difficult.

Matt • 35:19
Yeah, he’s he’s mixed in the metaphors a little bit, but I think the point still holds. It’s like, okay, you’re not a slave to sin. You’re f you’re free from sin. But now you’re free to be what you were meant to be all along. And that is in connection with God. And yes, you are in slavery or you’re a servant as of his, but that’s the way you’re supposed to be. The most freeing thing is to be the way that you were created to be.

Hannah • 35:44
Yes. Yeah.

Matt • 35:44
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a little tough to get your brain around.

Hannah • 35:49
Right.

Matt • 35:50
Yeah. And it’s also uh I mean again, I’ve read this I’ve read Romans, I don’t know, fifty times, somewhere in that, and I still am like, really? Is that true of me? What what’s he actually saying there? So yeah, and um I’ll probably be on this journey for the rest of my life. So Alright, so he sort of keeps going uh in chapters nine, ten, eleven, sort of on unpacking some more stuff from the Hebrew scripture. He’s sort of talking about the law of Moses and he’s talking about sort of the condition of of Israel. We won’t belabor those things now. Um Pastor Matthew talked a lot about them in the sermon series. But then he turns the corner in chapter twelve, and as you alluded to earlier, it sort of goes from the idea space or the doctrine space to being very, very uh directional or practical. And it even starts in, you know, the famous I I had to memorize this when I was in my high school discipleship program. Maybe maybe you did too. Romans one and two, where he says, Do not be transf uh do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed. By the renewing of your mind that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. So as the the story starts to turn here or the argument starts to turn, the the first thing we’re called to do, well the first thing we’re called to do is offer ourselves as a sacrifice to God, which is a nice little callback. Uh, but it starts with changing our minds. changing our minds about who God is, who we are, how this whole thing is gonna work and and run. So yeah. Hmm. Yeah. And then there’s, yeah, so he starts to get into sort of what it looks like to be the people of God together. And there was one thing that caught my eye this time. And I’ll be curious what you think about it. Um and it has to do with the documentary that I just watched last week. Are you ready for this?

Hannah • 37:37
Okay.

Matt • 37:38
I watched a documentary called The History of the Eagles. You know the band the Eagles?

Hannah • 37:44
Yeah.

Matt • 37:44
Are they your dad’s favorite band?

Hannah • 37:46
Uh I don’t know about favorite, but I’ve definitely heard him listen to them.

Matt • 37:51
Yeah, they are like the original Dad Rock band. You heard of this thing called Dad Rock?

Hannah • 37:57
No, I don’t think I have.

Matt • 37:58
Yeah, so I have been accused of listening to dad rock. Because a lot of it is like older bands, they’re almost all white guys. It’s a lot like acoustic guitar. Uh like there’s a band that I really like. Uh it’s called Wilco. And like, oh Wilco’s a dad rock band. I’m like, okay, guilty. Anyway, the Eagles are like the original dad rock band. I happen to I mean the I have a whole thing with the Eagles. I just feel like people bear with me a second, Hannah. But like the Eagles are I struggle with the Eagles because there’s so much I don’t like about the Eagles. They’re really terrible people. They’re um They was like the first band that’s like very clearly went after the money when like they started charging super duper high ticket prices and they were like What about the people? Don’t you care about they’re like, look, we’re here to make money, so we’re gonna charge high ticket prices. But at the same time, they wanna be like all like idea and socially conscious.

Hannah • 38:53
So it’s like you can’t do both.

Matt • 38:56
If if you’re gonna lecture us about like socially conscious things, like don’t charge like $500 tickets. What are you what are you doing? Anyway, but there’s this fun moment in the documentary where the f where they had just gotten together as a band in the early 70s and they were auditioning for a producer. And the producer they were auditioning for was a pretty famous guy. He had worked with like the Who and the Beatles and some of these guys in England, and he didn’t like them. He was like, your songs aren’t that interesting. You don’t really play your instruments very well. You don’t have a very good sound. I I don’t really see any reason why I would work with you. I I don’t think your band is going anywhere. And then um they’re like, Okay, well we got one more thing. It’s sort of this ballad thing that we just wrote and we’d love to do it. He’s like, fine, you know, do do you know, you’re paying for the time, so we got it. And they sang the song that they had written and they sang it in this four part harmony. And he was like, oh, that I’m interested in. I don’t care about all the other stuff. But when you sing in harmony like that, that’s what makes you interesting to me. And that sort of became like the the important signature of their sound. So some like like I don’t really like the Eagles, but I cannot deny that New Kid in Town is just a brilliant song. It’s great song and the harmonies on it are just luscious and beautiful and it’s amazing. So I hate that I like that song so much, but Okay, people are finding out way too much about my s musical snobbery than I meant to. Um but what I really loved about that is like I was thinking about that as I was reading this time like Yeah, when people look at sort of the church or people who call themselves the people of God, I don’t know that they’re really that interested in are social positions or doctrinal statements or so many things. It’s it’s living in harmony that that really captures their attention. They’re like, here’s a group of people that have no business being in the same room at the same time, and yet they treat each other like family. What is happening there and how can I be a part of it? So that that’s what I learned watching a movie about the Eagles.

Hannah • 41:03
Wow. I’m glad you got a a good moral of the story in the right.

Matt • 41:07
There we go. Yeah. So when Paul says in verse uh in chapter twelve, verse sixteen, live in harmony. with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lonely. And then one of our old friends, never be wise in your own sight. Oh yeah, little little design pattern there, a little hyperlink, right? Uh-huh. So I just I just love that. It’s like, you know, I mean All these things we try and throw out to make Jesus seem cool or you know, all these even uh like apologetics arguments and I mean all of these things have their places, but what does Paul say? Paul says live in harmony. with one another. I just thought it was really beautiful. It it caught my eye this time.

Hannah • 41:51
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it looks like um Uh very similar to Proverbs 3, 7, be not wise in your own eyes, fear the Lord and turn away from evil. Which uh, you know, Proverbs is Um the first part of Proverbs is very much playing off of the the Genesis three idea of the the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, which means trusting in the Lord’s wisdom and not defining good and bad for yourself. So Yeah, do not be wise in your own eyes. It has a lot of the same kind of language as going back to Genesis three.

Matt • 42:31
Yeah. So he gets really specific in chapters twelve and thirteen. He even has what was probably uh a disappointing word for the people of Rome. It’s like Yeah, you live under an empire. You should just you know, you should follow what the government says. That’s a disappointing word for a lot of people in our day and age too. Um and then in chapters fourteen and fifteen he talks a lot, he’s he’s sort of going back To this idea of the Jewish people and the Gentile, sort of circling back to do this ritual, do this thing, don’t do that, you know, the arguments that they were having. And he he sort of That dismisses it or calls it silly, but he’s like, that’s that’s not really what we’re trying to do here.

Hannah • 43:10
Yeah

Matt • 43:12
Yeah, so he’s like he doesn’t tell people don’t follow rituals, but what he’s saying is don’t lordo if you want to do the rituals or celebrate the holidays Do that with a clear conscience. But if somebody else doesn’t want to do that or doesn’t think they have to do that to follow Jesus, like don’t be a snob about it. Be cool about it. Don’t don’t look down on them.

Hannah • 43:31
Yeah.

Matt • 43:31
Yeah.

Hannah • 43:32
Yeah, the primary goal is to remain united in in the love of Christ. And so all these specific arguments about what we should or shouldn’t do really don’t matter. As long as you love each other and you’re united. You united in Christ. That’s what matters.

Matt • 43:52
Yeah. And I think we’re seeing sort of a version of that conversation in the day and age that we live in. You know, there are people that say you can’t be a Christian and do X. You can’t be a Christian and vote for this candidate or this thing. And I I don’t want to be dismissive of any of those things. Those are very real conversations to have. But you know, nowhere in scripture does it say you will know who is a Christian by the way that they vote. You know, Jesus or Paul doesn’t hold that up things like that. He doesn’t hold up these sort of ritual or identification markers as the primary thing. He talks about the way that we behave toward each other and the attitude and the way that we love each other and serve each other. So it’s just a reminder to sort of uh those things aren’t nothing, but sort of keep them in their proper place.

Hannah • 44:37
Yeah.

Matt • 44:39
Yeah. And then the book closes with what a chapter that I think people tend to skim through. But I think knowing what we know now, there’s actually a lot of beauty in. So chapter 16. It kind of reminds me of the genealogies in the Old Testament. Right. Where the temptation is to just skim through them Um and maybe you do some days, but when you do, you kind of miss that there’s some cool things. So there’s actually some cool things happening in the list of names in chapter 16.

Hannah • 45:10
Yeah.

Matt • 45:10
Yeah. So one of the things that we know is, you know, Paul’s writing this to a church that’s really struggling with being a group of Jewish people and a group of Romans people. And so as you read the names, you’ll start to notice, well, some of these are Hebrew sounding names. Some of them are sort of Greek sounding names and Roman sounding names. And the way that he’s just sort of interweaving them with each other, calling them out by name. It’s actually really beautiful.

Hannah • 45:35
Right. Yeah. Yeah. And there’s men and women named as well, um, working together, loving one another. So He’s definitely trying to approach all of those divisions between ethnic boundaries and socioeconomic boundaries and gender boundaries. to show the unity that that Christ’s love um allows us to have.

Matt • 46:02
Yeah, and there’s even a gender boundary there right at the beginning because he says he commends to his readers his their sister Phoebe. So Phoebe would have been the reader of this letter to the Roman church, and the role of the reader was not just to sort of narrate it uh verbally. But to be able to converse with that group about the author’s intent. So if they had some questions or needed clarification or wanted to fashion a response back to Paul, Phoebe would have been the conduit. for that. Um which have been a unusual uh position for a woman. Yeah. Would have been an unusual position for a woman to be in And that time and place. So that’s even that little thing tells us, oh, there’s something a little bit different happening here.

Hannah • 46:47
Mm-hmm. Totally. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt • 46:49
So so yeah, so don’t just skim through chapter 16. Read it nice and slow. Pay attention to the names, because there’s a lot of cool truth there that Paul wants us to see.

Hannah • 47:01
Yeah.

Matt • 47:02
Yeah. And then this beautiful doxology at the end where he’s like bringing it all back to the guy he started with the gospel, that the gospel is the uh that he’s not ashamed of the gospel, that’s the power of salvation. And he comes back to it at the end, says, now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages. He is very wordy. Then he goes on to say, To the God be the glory forevermore through Jesus Christ. Amen. Yeah, so it all comes back to Jesus.

Hannah • 47:34
That’s all one sentence. That whole doxology. It’s amazing.

Matt • 47:40
And we know the name of the guy who wrote it. It’s Tristan.

Hannah • 47:42
Yeah, I was gonna say even uh gives himself a little shout out as he’s writing the letter. He probably didn’t do it all at once. Oh, I hope not. It’s exhausting.

Matt • 47:57
Oh, shout out Tertius. Good job. All right, well that’s Romans.

Hannah • 48:03
Yeah.

Matt • 48:04
Uh so I’m still I still find it a very intimidating book. I still never feel like I quite get it. Uh but I’m I’m gonna keep going. I’m gonna read this book that Pastor Matthew uh very funnily and very graciously sent to me. Uh put it on my stack and I’ll get to it and then I’ll share it with you. And um, and yeah, so Romans.

Hannah • 48:24
Cool.

Matt • 48:25
Yeah. You got anything else for us?

Hannah • 48:28
No. No. It’s a dense book.

Matt • 48:31
It’s a dense book, yeah. It uh it’s worth multiple rereads.

Hannah • 48:36
Yeah.

Matt • 48:37
Yeah. So we’ll do it again next year.

Hannah • 48:39
Okay.

Matt • 48:40
Or some other time. Yeah. All right. Well, why don’t you pray for us?

Hannah • 48:43
Yeah. Lord, we just thank you so much for this opportunity that we have to read and discuss your word together and for this beautiful display of what your gospel is in the letter to the Romans. Even though we can’t fully understand this dense theological work Lord, I pray that you would illuminate to us the richness of the reality of um the love and forgiveness granted to us through your son. And the good news that um that is for our freedom. Um freedom from our bondage to sin and our old humanity to create us into new people, into the people that you uh created us to be so we can live fully into um the person that you’ve made us to be and not only that but um into the community of all of humanity that you’ve created us to be and to one day live in a restored creation that you are also setting free uh from its bondage to decay and destruction and corruption. So I pray that you would just broaden our understanding of what all of that means and that you would show us how to live out um The good news in practical ways, what it looks like to love and serve one another, to have humility and generosity, and to seek righteousness and justice in this world Um and fill us with your spirit to do all of that. Yeah, as we continue to read. more of of your scriptures. I pray that you would fill us with understanding of your truth and wisdom that you’re revealing to us. And we pray all this in Jesus’ name. Amen.

Matt • 50:44
Amen. Thanks, Hannah.

Hannah • 50:45
Thank you, Matt.