Bible in A Year: Episode 27

Intro • 00:00
Welcome to Read the Bible in a Year with Matt and Hannah, a weekly podcast from Fairfax Bible Church where we explore scripture together, uncovering its themes and design patterns. We’re glad you’re here. Now, here are your hosts, Matt and Hannah.

Matt • 00:14
Okay, here we are. This is episode 27. Um, I can’t think of a sports player that wears 27 off the it’s I think of it as a running back number in football. Okay. Hannah Hannah, you don’t care about this. I know. I’m sorry. I do this to you every time. I’m so sorry.

Hannah • 00:32
Yeah, it’s okay. I’m I’m trying to learn. Uh you know, whenever you present me with new information, I d I absorb it sometimes, other times I don’t.

Matt • 00:45
Uh you know that’s fair. That’s what Christy would say, and she’s been hanging out with me for more than twenty-five years now. So she’s like, okay, that’s cute. Good for you. Yeah. Yeah. All right, we are reading the Bible. I’m Matt. She is Hannah. And yeah, so Hannah, we are less than a month away from finishing. the Old Testament or as sometimes people call it the Hebrew scriptures. I think uh yeah if today we’re recording this on July twenty eighth and I think we actually finish uh the old testament on uh August 23rd somewhere there. So less than a month that we have left in the Old Testament. And then we turn the page and move over to the New Testament. So

Hannah • 01:24
Yeah. I noticed that uh once we get to the New Testament, we generally are only reading like two chapters a day, maybe three. Whereas when we were going through the Old Testament, it was like four or five Maybe six.

Matt • 01:39
Okay.

Hannah • 01:39
So we might be able to like sp I know maybe some of the chapters are longer, whatever, or more dense once we get to Paul’s letters. But we can spend a little more time. with a shorter amount. I enjoy doing that.

Matt • 01:53
So I think so. It my my routine when I’m reading the Bible in the morning. Yeah, some of these longer passages, I gotta like I gotta hustle.

Hannah • 02:01
Right.

Matt • 02:01
To like finish and like eat my breakfast and make my lunch for the day. So I mean it’s it’s I make it work, don’t get me wrong, but it’s like, oh, I gotta hustle to get this in. Yeah.

Hannah • 02:11
So it’s good. Yeah. I end up skimming some stuff. Yeah.

Matt • 02:14
Like the uh like the the um the genealogies. So Rich Scheipe. I don’t know if you were in church with us this week, but Rich Scheipe actually preached out of uh Genesis 5 in the genealogy. It was really good. Oh. It was really good.

Hannah • 02:28
I did miss it. I’ll have to go. Hopefully it was recorded.

Matt • 02:31
I believe it was. So um but yeah, it was really cool. Yeah. So I was remembering our conversation way back in January when somebody was like, do we really have to read the genealogies?

Hannah • 02:40
Yeah.

Matt • 02:41
So Rich Scheit proving that God can even speak through lists of so-and-so, begot so-and-so, begot so-and-so, begot so-and-so. So good times.

Hannah • 02:50
Good.

Matt • 02:51
Uh well we want to I think we want to go at three books this time. Uh we finished our uh Lamentations and we did Esther and then I don’t know if we’ll quite finish Daniel during this reading period, but close enough for our purposes. So why don’t you catch us up? What’s what’s the story so far? Where are we?

Hannah • 03:10
Yeah, well, we’ll probably just do like one book at a time here, but for Lamentations, um, we have this collection of lament poems. Written in the midst of the Babylonian siege and destruction of Jerusalem. Often this book is attributed to Jeremiah. I don’t know if uh I think it’s anonymous, so we don’t actually know, but um he expresses a lot of the same grief in uh in the book of Jeremiah. So I think that’s why it’s attributed to him. sometimes called the weeping prophet. So yeah, the the Book of Lamentations is this uh collection of five poems and they actually have a really interesting um structure. Yeah. They’re at least the first four, I believe, are acrostic poems, like alphabet in the the Hebrew alphabet. Each uh verse starts with a new letter of the Hebrew alphabet. Um, but by the end, I think the last, if I’m remembering correctly, the last chapter, just like breaks down. Little yeah, little chaos there. Which is representative of the the message and the grief and the pain that’s being expressed.

Matt • 04:28
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I I will follow up with a couple thoughts on lamentations, but tell us about Esther.

Hannah • 04:35
Oh I thought we were gonna Oh you want to just do a monitor?

Matt • 04:37
Yeah, let’s do one.

Hannah • 04:39
It’ll get confusing.

Matt • 04:40
Oh okay. Well thank you. Thanks for looking out for people. So yeah, Lamentations. A short book. And I this might be the first time that I have read Lamentations not stacked up against Jeremiah.

Hannah • 04:50
Yeah.

Matt • 04:51
Definitely the church that I grew up in. And I think most Bibles that I’ve uh read would have assumed that Jeremiah was the author of this book of Lamentations. And so it’s it’s right next to it in the way in you know, the rendering of the text that we have. And so I’ve always read it right next to Jeremiah. I think the first time I’ve ever read Lamentations, not right next to Jeremiah. Um and it definitely it definitely changed the perspective for me of the experience. Yeah. How so? Um because I think you know, I heard somebody one time who was like if in Jeremiah the message is we’re dying in Lamentations the message is we’re dead. So yeah it’s it’s like a funeral type thing. So I think when you read them stacked up against each other, I mean Jeremiah’s a heavy book, it’s a weighty book. So I think you just go into lamentations and you’re still in that sort of mindset or mood and you’re like, oh my goodness. But having a little bit of separation from it, then I sort of come back to it and I feel like I’m reading the book on its own terms rather than just an appendix to Jeremiah or a coda to Jeremiah. So it It definitely freed me to see more things that were in there this time.

Hannah • 06:02
Okay. Yeah.

Matt • 06:03
So I picked up on the poetry thing. Yeah. I mean the video explains that. I I would not know that as just a casual English reader. But yeah, when you could see that ’cause a lot of the psalms are like that. Uh and so it’s like, okay, so you know, it’s gonna be working this way. And then I don’t think I realize that chapter three is actually in the voice of a character. I don’t I don’t think I had noticed that before. Um and so that really popped for me this time. I always assumed it was just Jeremiah’s words. Um, but especially in the video, they do a good job of highlighting that somebody introduces themselves. Uh and so much like we talked about with JT in Ecclesiastes last week, by the way, how fun was that? How fun was it to have JT? Yeah. Um how using the character as a device itself, yeah. That really was interesting to me. And especially because chapter three does that very striking um change, um, where it’s like bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. Yeah. But, you know, God’s faithfulness. I may have talked about this before, but In soccer, there’s this concept called the run of play. Have I talked about this?

Hannah • 07:10
I don’t think I’ve heard you talk about this.

Matt • 07:12
Okay, so if you’re watching a soccer game and one team seems to be doing obviously better than the other. uh the commentators might say that that is the team that has the run of play.

Hannah • 07:22
Okay.

Matt • 07:23
But then uh if the other team sort of comes along and just sort of randomly scores a goal y you would say that they scored against the run of play. So you you had no way to anticipate that they would have scored here because they haven’t had possession of the ball. They keep making mistakes and yet they get a moment and then boom, there it is. Um and so it’s it’s a really dramatic moment in a soccer game when it happens. And when I get to chapter three and it says But this I know. Uh in fact I want to do it justice. Let me actually flip back over there and and read it here. I was in Daniel, because that’s what we’re talking about later. Um Ah, there it is. Uh where he says yeah, I think it’s a good idea. But this I call to mind, and therefore I have hope. The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases. His mercies never come to an end. They are new every morning. Great is your faithfulness. The Lord is my portion, says my soul. Therefore I will hope in him. You just don’t see that coming. And so when it hits like that, it’s like, wow, it is like such a splash of water and so fresh. It’s it’s very it’s a brilliant, brilliant literary device. And the the way that the writer, whether it’s Jeremiah or whoever it is, just puts it in exactly the right place uh for your reading experience and and to fresh your soul. It it really struck me this time.

Hannah • 08:53
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, and structurally that’s like right in the middle of uh the chapter and that chapter’s in the m middle of the book, so it’s the central piece of the collection.

Matt • 09:09
I did wonder about that. I’m glad you pointed that out.

Hannah • 09:12
Yeah.

Matt • 09:12
Because we saw that in Leviticus, right? Leviticus has some structural things going there. The the center of the center was about the um the holy of holies, right?

Hannah • 09:21
Yeah, I think the whole Torah is actually kind of structured like that ’cause Leviticus is the third book, so it’s at the center of the Torah.

Matt • 09:30
Right.

Hannah • 09:31
And then the Leviticus itself has that kind of uh chiastic structure.

Matt • 09:36
Yeah, so kind of a similar thing happening here. So there’s five poems and in the central poem, the one that’s in the center It’s just this really, really foundational idea. And it’s one that changes. It it flips your view on what you’re reading about, yes, all of these terrible things have been happening to us, and we are Mourning and confessing, and yet God in his love is steadfast and faithful, and he’s the one that we can put our trust in. Yeah, it’s really cool. It’s really cool the way it plays out.

Hannah • 10:06
Yeah. Yeah, and it’s interesting that that’s at the middle of Lamentations because then it continues and the next couple of chapters are still expressing pain and grief. And so you kinda I don’t know, we uh think in very linear, like a progression of, oh, I’m grieving, but then I find hope and I settle in the hope. And I don’t like leave from there. But this is I I don’t know, I f I’m wondering if the structure is demonstrating that We can rest in that hope, but it’s okay if you’re still grieving. Like there’s still grief and pain, and God honors a honest expression of that grief and pain uh to him. We’re centered on that hope, but you don’t have to like stop grieving. Yeah.

Matt • 10:58
Yeah, and it’s okay to still experience or still call out injustice and things uh to say see and say that things are wrong and not the way that they should be.

Hannah • 11:10
Yeah.

Matt • 11:10
We can do those. And I I actually think if we didn’t have a verse about hope, then it’s just morbid and fatalistic and like nihilistic even, oh, everything is just terrible, nothing’s ever gonna get better. And he’s like, no, we we can talk about these things and be honest about these things. Because our hope is in a God whose mercies are new every morning. Like he’s gonna he’s gonna put a coat of paint on this thing. Or something.

Hannah • 11:37
Yeah.

Matt • 11:38
Yeah, so I I I really appreciated Lamentations this time.

Hannah • 11:42
So Yeah.

Matt • 11:43
Yeah. Cool. So neat little book and uh again for me the fact that it wasn’t sort of stacked up against Jeremiah reading it in a different way than I’ve read it before. So I think it really popped for me. Another book I’m not used to reading in this sequence. I mean God bless the people at the Bible Project. Their sequence is all over the place.

Hannah • 12:01
You know they’re not making it up, right?

Matt • 12:02
I know they’re not making it up. I’ve just never read it in this order before, so it’s a little disorienting.

Hannah • 12:08
This is the original order of the Hebrew scriptures. This is how Jewish people read the Hebrew scriptures.

Matt • 12:17
They would read Lamentations after Jeremiah?

Hannah • 12:19
No. And not in the Tanakh ordering. Okay. Yeah, ’cause ’cause Jeremiah is in the the prophets or the Neveim, that’s the middle part, and Lamentations is in the Kettevim, the writings, which is the third part.

Matt • 12:33
Well it’s all over the place for me.

Hannah • 12:35
So this is not innovative. We’re actually going back to what Jewish people the order they would read. Struggling.

Matt • 12:44
That’s right. Alright, so the next book that we read is Esther. Esther’s a super cool book. I enjoyed reading Esther.

Hannah • 12:50
Yeah, it’s fun. It has a a a fun narrative.

Matt • 12:54
Yeah. It really who’s working on this? Somebody’s gotta be working on this. This should be like a Netflix series or Amazon Prime or something, shouldn’t it?

Hannah • 13:01
Yeah, this would be a a really intense story, like a very edge of your seat. story to s watch a movie or a series.

Matt • 13:10
Yeah, you got conspiracies, you got a heist, you got big parties.

Hannah • 13:17
Yeah.

Matt • 13:17
Like Great Gatsby style massive parties. Yeah. That could be pretty fun for a director. You got some love triangle action. Not a classic love trial, but you know the king’s not happy with his wife, so he dumps her, gets a new one. Sure. Uh yeah, I mean you got uh you got beautiful woman. Um that could be a thing, sure. You got uh you got a an a textbook, you got a Disney villain. Who gets his just desserts? Yeah, it’s cool. This should yeah. Who who might you cast? Like who would who would be Esther?

Hannah • 13:55
I don’t know actors well enough to even throw out a good name.

Matt • 14:00
Yeah, I feel like the best Esther would be like some indie actress that we wouldn’t have even heard of. Yeah, I don’t have a good one for this either. Um I don’t know, but like uh Russell Crowe could be like a good Mordecai, I think.

Hannah • 14:14
Okay.

Matt • 14:15
He’s got like that moral gravitas to him.

Hannah • 14:18
What I will say is uh we know who the director would be.

Matt • 14:22
Oh oh um oh well the guy who just did the Odyssey, right?

Hannah • 14:26
Christopher Nolan? Yeah.

Matt • 14:28
Yeah. No, I think I know why you’re saying that, but but tell the people. Esther for sure has an unusual design. And yeah, you can’t you can’t really understand the book the way it’s supposed to be until you sort of see what’s going on in the design. Yeah.

Hannah • 14:45
So Yeah. Yeah, because of the sequencing. Yeah. So uh there’s this big um It’s the story of reversals. Yeah. And the structure itself is one big reversal. Uh yeah, exactly like what we were saying really with Lamentations, but I think it’s more obvious, at least once you realize it, looking back and seeing how the first and last stories mirror each other. The second and second to last mirror each other, right? And then there’s this point of pivot right at the middle where everything starts to reverse Um, so yeah, really cool, but the way that Christopher Nolan plays with time, I think it’s totally a Christopher Nolan movie.

Matt • 15:28
Yeah. Chris Ferner, if you’re listening, I know you’re listening to this. Get to work on this. Yeah, so well walk walk us through it and then we can sort of talk about how the sort of out and back or the reverse the nature of it because it’s really interesting.

Hannah • 15:41
Yeah. Yeah. So this is another book set uh within the setting of exile. But this would be quite a bit later. So the story starts approximately a hundred years after the Babylonian exile. So at this point, some Israelites would have returned back to Jerusalem by now. But others remained in exile. And uh the Persian Empire has defeated the Babylonian Empire, and so uh Persia’s king um there’s two names that are Given depending what translation you’re looking at. Okay. Some translations say King Xerxes, and the other says Ahashuaris. Or I don’t know how you’re going to do that.

Matt • 16:25
Is that really how it’s pronounced?

Hannah • 16:27
I’m not sure. I’ve heard it. I like listened on my audio bible to different translations. One says Ahashuweris. The other says a hazarus, which is kind of what it looks more like. The Hebrew is a hashferosh.

Matt • 16:44
Oh boy. Oh boy.

Hannah • 16:45
Xerxes is so much easier. Let’s just say Xerxes. Yeah. So so the Persia’s king Xerxes is reigning and he loves to throw these Extravagant parties. He throws a six-month-long party.

Matt • 17:00
What what do you even do at a six-month party? I don’t think I have six months of partying in me.

Hannah • 17:06
Could you imagine putting in a leave request for

Matt • 17:15
Oh my gosh. I mean I like a party, but I’m good for about three hours at a party.

Hannah • 17:19
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s enough.

Matt • 17:21
Yeah. And then I’m kind of like, okay, time to go. I gotta go to bed here.

Hannah • 17:25
Yeah. So six-month-long party. At one point, the king wants to show off the beauty of his queen, Vashti, in front of his guests, but she refuses to do so.

Matt • 17:37
That’s kind of a boss move.

Hannah • 17:39
Well yeah, you know, she doesn’t want to be his pawn or whatever. Who knows what he’s trying to do, you know?

Matt • 17:46
Yeah. Well I mean he’s

Hannah • 17:47
I get it.

Matt • 17:47
He’s probably inebriated on some level, so yeah.

Hannah • 17:51
I’m sure. So the king is mad about that and he decides to get rid of her and search for a new queen. And so this Jewish girl named Esther comes onto the scene and she starts finding favor in the king’s eyes and ends up being crowned as his next. queen. And so then um there’s this other guy, Mordecai, who’s either Esther’s cousin or uncle, depending on there’s a little debate in the translation about that.

Matt • 18:20
Okay, that’s fun.

Hannah • 18:21
I’m gonna go with uncle.

Matt • 18:22
That’s what that’s what my translation says.

Hannah • 18:24
Oh, does it? Okay. Yeah. Um so Mordecai um is hanging around, making sure Esther is okay, and he ends up offending this guy named Haman, who is a member of the royal court, because he refuses to bow down to Haman. So Haman makes this decree to kill all the Jews Which is uh outsized punishment.

Matt • 18:47
What’s what’s Heyman even bringing to the table?

Hannah • 18:50
I don’t know.

Matt • 18:51
What uh Heyman, what okay, I mean I’m I’m losing the plot here, but like it’s just so ridiculous because it’s not like Heyman’s done anything. He’s just he’s just a buffoon.

Hannah • 19:00
Yeah.

Matt • 19:01
Yeah.

Hannah • 19:02
So Mordecai convinces Esther to intervene. Up to this point she’s kept her Jewish identity secret. Um but she invites the king and Haman to a series of banquets, and around the same time it just so happens that the king can’t sleep and he has the royal records read to him. which recounts the time that Mordecai saved his life from an assassination plot.

Matt • 19:25
Good job, Mordecai.

Hannah • 19:26
Yeah, so the king orders that Haman parade Mordecai around the city to honor him. And then Esther reveals her Jewish identity to the king. She reveals Haman’s plot to destroy her people. And so the king ends up having. Haman killed and then makes a decree that the Jewish people can defend themselves. So the Jewish people are preserved and their deliverance is memorialized through the Jewish holiday called Purim. And that’s the end of the story.

Matt • 19:58
Have you celebrated Purim?

Hannah • 19:59
I have a couple times.

Matt • 20:00
Yeah, that’s that’s on brand for you.

Hannah • 20:03
Purim is kind of like the Jewish Halloween. In a sense, everyone dresses up in costumes.

Matt • 20:11
Okay.

Hannah • 20:12
Yeah. And you’re I feel like this is in a show I watched.

Matt • 20:16
I feel like there’s a show that I was watching and there’s like a Jewish family in it and they have a Purem party and it was Halloween themed. Yeah. It’s escaping me what show that that was Okay, but yes, I’m I’m I’m tracking with you. Yes.

Hannah • 20:29
Yeah. It’s a f it’s supposed to be a very celebratory um yeah. It’s an exciting holiday.

Matt • 20:36
Nice.

Hannah • 20:37
Mm-hmm.

Matt • 20:38
Yeah, so so this like sort of out and back or V-shaped thing where it’s sort of going one direction and then it’s like the the the so Yeah, there’s this plot where Haman is trying to trap Mordecai and it turns into like, uh, we’re gonna kill all of the Jewish people. And then it sort of pivots a little bit, and Esther is able to grant the king’s favor um and uh present her request. And then it sort of undoes. So there’s this undoing. of the things that that Heyman was trying to put in place. It’s really elegant.

Hannah • 21:12
Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of like irony in some of the reversals. Like Heyman makes this you know, stake that he wants to hang Mordecai on, but ends up actually Haman gets killed on that stake, the same one he makes. So all these like twists Um, even if you look at the language specifically about the way that Mordecai gets a crown put on his head, but Haman’s like like head is covered because he’s like ashamed. So all these reversals.

Matt • 21:46
Yeah. So what about this the like we start with the big, big party, but then there’s this moment where it’s a very small party. So kind of the scale and scope are shifting a little bit. Is there something to that idea?

Hannah • 21:59
Yeah, I don’t know if those are mirrored quite as such, but Esther does have two banquets that kind of mirror the two banquets at the beginning of the story. Okay. But I I don’t know that hers change in size. Um but yeah, there might be something there too.

Matt • 22:15
Okay.

Hannah • 22:15
Yeah.

Matt • 22:16
Yeah, but it’s cool. So I know this is one, um, you know, this one becomes popular every so often because there’s that beautiful phrase where Mordecai says to Esther because she’s She doesn’t know if she wants to do this ’cause she potentially is putting her life at risk and um but uh you know, when when Mordecai says to her, you know, who knows if you haven’t been chosen for such a time as this? So this is a phrase that people use a lot about just Hey, you know, the situation that God has you in, maybe this is he’s been preparing you for such a time as this. So I know that’s a phrase that that people like to sort of throw around sometimes. And Maybe you didn’t know that this is where it was from.

Hannah • 22:53
So Yeah, yeah. I think the other part, um, I right before that verse that’s interesting is Mordecai says Hey, Esther, like if you’re not gonna do this, deliverance will come from somewhere else. Which, you know, well um God is not actually explicitly mentioned in that context or anywhere in the book.

Matt • 23:14
I was gonna say we can’t cast God because he’s not a character in this book.

Hannah • 23:19
Right. He’s not mentioned at all.

Matt • 23:21
Or is he?

Hannah • 23:23
Well he he is present, but he’s not mentioned. Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but the the idea that like, you know, I don’t know, we’re assuming that we’re referring to without explicitly saying God will deliver his people. If you won’t help, like God’s still gonna He’s still working and present, but you could play a role in his purposes if you choose to. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, but the the lack of mention of God is really interesting because you can see his hand and his providence throughout the whole story, even without his explicit mention.

Matt • 24:01
Yeah, and and it’s also not like he’s using um like a morally outstanding people

Hannah • 24:09
Yeah, yeah.

Matt • 24:10
You know, there’s there’s some uh i uh you know you gotta you gotta Mordecai and Esther. He’s a father figure to her, but the exact relationship is not clear. Um, you know, the the things that she uh is required to do to make herself available to the king uh and become the next queen. Mm, little some stuff in there, not exactly in the Torah. They’re not practicing Torah, so far as we can see. Um, so it’s not like they’re doing these things because they have proven themselves to be moral exemplars. Th it’s it’s you know, they happen to be available and they they say yes to God in this moment and that’s who he chooses to use.

Hannah • 24:53
Yeah, right.

Matt • 24:55
Yeah, so th kind of similar to I’m thinking back to like Jacob you might not have picked out because he was a moral exemplar. Uh, you know, even David, uh David’s a little bit different, but you know, David not always a moral exemplar. So it’s it’s not like the good boy or the good girl that God chooses.

Hannah • 25:13
Yeah.

Matt • 25:13
He has his own reasons that he he he picks and chooses who he wants to use. Yeah, so it’s a it’s an interesting story. And yeah, Christopher Nolan, when you’re ready, we’ll we’ll watch. Yeah. So the other book that we did during this reading period also involves the exile. A little bit different angle on this. So so the Esther story is basically in in Persia, which is sort of the second phase of it. This is Babylon Uh Babylon’s been sort of the bad guy in the story, so to speak. They’ve always sort of been hovering, they’re coming, Babylon’s gonna come and take over. And Now we actually see, uh, and we were experiencing this a little bit with Ezekiel, but now we get a little bit different uh spin on it. Now Babylon’s here, and we get a view from the inside. What’s it look like to sort of be people of God, but live in and among your enemy. And Daniel really gives us an interesting point of view on that.

Hannah • 26:12
Yeah.

Matt • 26:15
So he is well you you probably have a little bit of a summary there, so I’ll let you uh show your summary.

Hannah • 26:20
So yeah, the the book of Daniel is also set during the exile, but uh right at the beginning, so right after Babylon’s first attack on Jerusalem. And that first wave of Israelites that Babylon took into captivity was either exclusively or mostly people from the royal family, from the line of Judah. And so this included Daniel and his three friends that uh a lot of the stories are about. And um they’re all given Babylonian names, they’re trained to serve in the king’s royal court, they’re being educated into uh Babylonian language and culture and integrated into uh Babylonian lifestyle. And so there’s this ongoing pressure for them to assimilate and compromise their loyalty to Yahweh, the God of Israel. But Daniel and his friends repeatedly choose to remain faithful. They refuse the king’s food. Daniel’s friends are thrown into the fiery furnace because they refuse to bow down to the big idol. And Daniel is thrown into the lion’s den because he continues praying even after uh there’s been a decree that outlaws prayer. uh to other gods. And so in each of these stories, God delivers his people and he humbles these powerful kings. showing that he is the one that’s ultimately in control, not Babylon or any other empire. And so then Daniel uh also receives a series of these really strange symbolic visions of the kingdoms of the world to their violent rulers, pictured as these terrifying beasts. And there is a handful of interpretations about what these visions refer to, but Ultimately, I think the important thing is that God, who is called the Ancient of Days, will one day defeat the beast. Exalt the figure that’s called the Son of Man, who’s like the messianic figure, and establish his kingdom forever.

Matt • 28:23
Yeah, the I uh so I’ll work backwards here a little bit here. The visions, uh the the latter part of the book with the visions, I struggle to read those sometimes.

Hannah • 28:33
Yes.

Matt • 28:34
Uh much like some of the Book of Revelation is a little bit of a struggle to read because and maybe it’s kind of the tradition that I brew up, I want my brain wants to do like the code matching. You know, this image is a prophecy about this thing. And I read a story in the New York Times today that says this. And so I I struggle to separate it of all of those things and just read it for what it is. Um so some of this like apocalyptic this and apocalyptic not in terms of future telling but like revealing the rev reveal it or rev well I won’t that word um Yeah, I struggle to I struggle to read those sometimes because I I want the code. I wanna know what all this means. Um And I I uh I mean I’ve been trying for years now, but to beat back that tendency as a reader can sometimes be a struggle for me. So especially in the the days of ancient Near East empires and Ooh, that can be that can be a little bit of a struggle. But just reading it on its own terms, um, yeah, certainly descriptive and vivid uh and interesting in those ways. And This idea that even in this realm that we can’t really see and experience, there are lots of things happening. God is active in that domain, and God is victorious even in that domain. So that’s kind of the the big thing that I always take away from it from my experience reading those. Am I on the right track? Do you have any counsel for me?

Hannah • 30:01
Uh I mean not really. I’m also no expert in apocalyptic literature, but um I think the more and more you read, particularly the Hebrew scriptures, but the but the more you read the Bible The more you get familiar with these symbolic images that are used in other ways, even just in the Psalms. You know, there’s a ton of symbolic imagery. And then you can kind of start to see more of what these visions might be trying to capture what the symbolism is and not not symbolism like you were saying in referring to specific times or events that have or will happen, but uh what’s the the meaning or significance and how does it tie into the big story of the whole narrative of scripture um because the reason why these um visions are in the Bible is the important thing. Like why is it connected to this storyline? And that’s probably what we should be looking for.

Matt • 31:07
Yeah Yeah, that’s a good point. That’s I I think that’s probably still my hardest challenge as a just Bible reader is is kind of holding my need for things to make sense a little bit more loose with those passages.

Hannah • 31:25
Yeah.

Matt • 31:25
I uh I still think I’m gonna crack the code. E even though I’ve read some of these many, many times now and and heard sermons preached on them. But I’m still like, oh if I just if I stand over my head and close my eye, maybe maybe I can see the code. I yeah, I really I labor hard. to uh to not read them that way. So I think that’s a good word. Now the first half of the book though is uh a little more stort straightforward. It’s less uh there’s still some some imagery because there’s a couple dreams.

Hannah • 31:51
Yeah.

Matt • 31:52
Um that show themselves. But this is really I I I read in fact even um the passage about the lion’s den, I sort of read it as a civil disobedience story. Which I kind of caught me today. So um so I p think people know the fiery furnace story. Um, you know, you learned that in Sunday school. Veggie Tales, I’m sure, uh covers that one. And then I I know a lot of people would be familiar with Daniel and the Lion’s Den, classic Bible story. Uh your third grade Sunday school teacher probably Worked worked really hard to share that with you. But I really what caught my eye when I read it this time was um you know the conspirators, the the people who are trying to get Daniel in trouble with the king. And they said the way to get him is with the law of his God. And so we’re going to make this rule that you can’t pray to anybody but the king for thirty days. And I don’t know if Daniel was in on the briefing or what, but Daniel knows exactly what they’re trying to do. And not only does he not follow this very foolish decree, and it’s just a dumb rule to make anyway. Um Because w how are you supposed to enforce this and like who really cares and all of this? But he opens his window. That was the thing that caught me today.

Hannah • 33:02
Yeah.

Matt • 33:02
He opens his window at the appointed time. Knowing that people can see him, knowing that people are trying to trap him, knowing that he’s taking a risk here, and A doesn’t care, but also seems to understand that this is going to backfire on them. Like they’re gonna see the foolishness of their effort and the king’s gonna realize the foolishness of his degree by just stepping right into it. He doesn’t lead a protest, he doesn’t file a lawsuit, he doesn’t claim his rights, he doesn’t do any of these things. He just is obedient to God and then sort of lets the foolish position reveal itself. I I it caught my eye today. Yeah. Made me think that I like in the days of the civil rights movement here in the United States When you read about Martin Luther King, especially when you read the letter from the Birmingham jail, it’s some of this logic in there. It’s like you’ve made some very, very dumb laws here. And we’re not going to do them. And by us not doing them, you’re going to see how foolish the thing that you have done is.

Hannah • 34:09
Yeah.

Matt • 34:09
Yeah. It’s a r it’s it’s but it’s it’s really cool and effective, but it’s also it’s Um, I’m struggling with the right word here. It’s just really interesting.

Hannah • 34:19
Yeah.

Matt • 34:20
Yeah.

Hannah • 34:21
Yeah. The um There was a good video from Bible Project on that concept. I think it uh the way of the exile, I think is what they call this video. Um and they call this idea loyal subversion.

Matt • 34:38
Yeah.

Hannah • 34:39
Yeah.

Matt • 34:39
I love that.

Hannah • 34:40
Yeah. So this idea that, you know, Daniel and his friends take on Babylonian Babylonian names. They even work in the royal court for the the the kingda, the empire of Babylon, but they know where to draw the line. You know, they’re not gonna bow down to this idol. Daniel’s not gonna stop praying. Um, so they’re remaining faithful, but they’re also still, yeah, they’re not revolting. They’re not uh engaging in any violence. Um they’re still seeking the well-being of their enemies. Yeah. Which are now their neighbors.

Matt • 35:23
Yeah.

Hannah • 35:24
Yeah. Yeah, loyal subversion.

Matt • 35:27
Yeah, I think Jesus, when when we see Jesus, especially in the Sermon on the Mount, say, love your enemies and serve the people who persecute you. I bet some of these notes were in his head about that. Like it’s just it’s a fascinating. It’s very countercultural today. I I don’t know anybody in sort of the public sphere, whether it’s um, you know, kind of the evangelical or Christian domains or anything. I don’t know anyone talking this way. It is all about power accrual and um v vengeance cycles and us and them and we need to have power so that we can do things to them before that they do things to us. Those that’s what all the conversations are about. And here’s Daniel saying Go ahead. Shoot your best. Shoot your best shot. I’m right here. I’m not going anywhere. Uh I’m wrong. I’m I’m gonna let I’m gonna let the Lord show you. Yeah, it’s it’s really fascinating.

Hannah • 36:34
Yeah. And the friends, when they’re about to be thrown into the fiery furnace, they’re like, we know that our God can deliver us, but Even if he doesn’t, we’re still not gonna bow down to your idol. Yes. Like he doesn’t have to prove himself to you and I don’t know what his plans are if he’s gonna deliver me from this or not, but Ma all I can do is not bow down to that thing.

Matt • 36:57
Yeah.

Hannah • 36:57
Yeah.

Matt • 36:58
Yeah, I love it. Yeah. I love it. Good for Daniel. Good for Daniel. Um now there are these two dreams. Is it two dreams? Uh one it’s one dream with two. Yeah, well you can explain it better than I can, but there is something about sort of this uh Dream that Nebuchadnezzar has that I think is really interesting.

Hannah • 37:17
So yeah. So throughout the book of Daniel, he’s presenting Babylon as like this archetype of a proud, violent nation or kingdom. And there’s a couple main images that are particularly highlighted in chapter four in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. Uh and also um at least one of them is highlighted later in the in the vision. So the two images are trees and beasts. Okay. Yeah. Okay, so let’s start with the trees.

Matt • 37:45
So in- No, I love a good tree reference.

Hannah • 37:47
Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, me too. In chapter four, Nebuchadnezzar has this dream that he asks Daniel to interpret for him, and it’s about this lofty tree that is going to be cut down. So it grows so tall that it can be seen from the ends of the earth, it provides food and shelter for all the animals and birds And this is uh, I think, representing the reach of Babylon’s kingdom and the potential it has to be a place of refuge where people can flourish. Which is like an Eden space.

Matt • 38:21
Oh, okay.

Hannah • 38:21
Yeah.

Matt • 38:22
Um I’m tracking this.

Hannah • 38:24
If you go back and read Ezekiel chapter 31, like the beginning of the chapter, it has like almost identical imagery describing Assyria the same way.

Matt • 38:35
Oh okay.

Hannah • 38:35
Yeah. Okay with this this tree imagery and animals and birds finding refuge in it. But in both passages, the tree becomes proud. The ruler starts to believe that all his power and reach is a result of his own His own doing. And so God has to cut the tree down. And something that’s really interesting is that the kingdom of God is actually described in some similar ways. Uh like Jesus’ parable about the mustard seed describes the kingdom of God like this mustard seed. It’s the smallest of all the seeds, but when it’s sown, it grows up and becomes larger. than all of the other plants and puts out large branches so that the birds of the air can make nests in its shade. That’s mark four, thirty, and thirty-two Okay. So really similar language about refuge or shelter and animals or birds coming to to live and flourish under it, find shelter and dwell in peace and provision. So both Daniel and Ezekiel describe Babylon and Assyria with the same potential to be Eden spaces for flourishing. But it’s because their rulers are treating power as their own possession or for their own glory t and oppressing people under their power, then then that’s when the tree needs to be cut down. So it’s only the kingdom of God that will never be corrupted by human pride or violence. But I thought it was really interesting. that this similar language could be used for both these evil nations and for the kingdom of God. Yeah. But it’s like, are you going to use the potential for good or for evil?

Matt • 40:25
Yeah.

Hannah • 40:26
Yeah.

Matt • 40:26
Yeah, very I mean not not so dissimilar from Psalm one.

Hannah • 40:31
Yep.

Matt • 40:31
Or the Jeremiah 17 passage that we looked at a couple weeks ago. Um yeah, so that idea of okay Yeah, because in Psalm 1, it’s like what kind of tree do you want to be? Is basically the question. So it’s kind of playing those notes a little bit here.

Hannah • 40:46
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then this other image from Nebuchadnezzar’s dream is this beast. So the interpretation is that Nebuchadnezzar himself is going to become like a beast of the field. Chapter 4, verses 16 and 17. So humanity was created in God’s image to rule over creation, which include ruling over the beasts of the field in um Genesis one, I think, one or two. But when humans try to rule independently from God Um, they actually become less human. Would just like to become a beast, you would say. And so that’s exactly what happens to Nebuchadnezzar. And I think the visions of the beasts later in Daniel apply this concept to entire empires. These violent and oppressive, arrogant nations are portrayed as beasts. um because they’re not acting according to the image of God. So they’re not truly human. Yeah. And the the perfect opposite to these beasts is the son of man, which really just means like one who is human

Matt • 42:02
Okay.

Hannah • 42:02
So this figure, the son of man, the truly human one, which Jesus later identifies himself with this figure. He calls himself the son of man. And so this is a human who can truly live in the image of God and can rule over the beast still.

Matt • 42:24
This is actually the reference that Jesus makes about himself. During his trial, when he’s on trial and about to be crucified, when they challenge him and he says, I see the Son of Man lifted up and seated at the right hand of God. So he puts himself in that place and that’s the moment where the uh the trial like just loses themselves and is ready to crucify him. So yeah. That’s very powerful. Yeah, I I this is another one that’s it’s poetic imagery. And yet I think it’s when you sort of understand what’s happening here, it becomes so plain. When we you know we are made to be in the image of God. And yet to to elevate ourselves actually l lessens ourselves. is to lesser ourselves, to make us to to make us lesser than we should be. And the way to be greater is to sort of lessen ourselves, lower ourselves. Um and be humble and obedient to God’s instruction. Yep. Yeah, which is Jesus is going to talk a lot about when we turn the page to the New Testament here in a few weeks. Yeah. It’s It’s it’s interesting. It’s it’s easy to I mean it sounds so poetic and yet to live it out in real life. It’s like, wait a minute, what’s the moment here? Yeah, so it’s it can be tricky.

Hannah • 43:48
Yeah.

Matt • 43:50
Yeah, those are great thoughts. Thank you. I think I’d heard that before, but I think you explained it really well. So I feel like I understand it in a fresh way now. I appreciate that. Yeah, and you know, sort of pulling the threads together here, uh, you know, what does it look like to like live in exile and experience exile? I mean, in Lamentations, it’s gonna be um mourning and lament and confession of sin and protest against injustice. You know, in in the Esther it’s gonna be hey standing in there when there’s a um uh when there’s a severe injustice, but but being allowed or allowing yourself to be used by God to be corrected in that And then in Daniel, this story of uh what is it, subversive loyalty or loyal subversion?

Hannah • 44:34
Yep. Yeah.

Matt • 44:34
Yeah, that loyal subversion. Yeah, so sometimes maybe our our the place for us is to just cry. and grieve and lament. Sometimes maybe it’s to kind of stand in there, take advantage of a moment or an opportunity that we have. And for sometimes it’s going to be just loyal subversion. You know, I’m here, I’m in this, but uh but I’m not gonna give them my allegiance. I’m still gonna be uh pledge my allegiance and give my allegiance to the the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, and let’s see let’s see what he wants me to do here. So yeah, uh sort of different ways to experience life in exile.

Hannah • 45:10
Mm-hmm.

Matt • 45:11
And we’ll probably experience them all at some point.

Hannah • 45:14
Yeah, definitely.

Matt • 45:15
Yeah. All right. Um, all right, so we’re actually gonna take next week off. Uh I have some travel. I think you you have a little bit of travel coming up here too. So you get a break from us for a couple weeks, people. It’s your chance to catch up. Then when we come back, uh we’ll finish out the Old Testament and we’ll start aiming ourselves in the New Testament.

Hannah • 45:34
Should be a good time. Yeah.

Matt • 45:35
Yeah it’s exciting. Uh any other thoughts on uh Esther Daniel Lamentations?

Hannah • 45:41
Um the only other random connection that I saw.

Matt • 45:45
Oh I love a random connection.

Hannah • 45:47
Yes Between Esther and Daniel, there is a time in both books where the king can’t sleep. For some reason. Okay. And then it leads to the exaltation of one of the Israelite people who end up like s saving the the nation of Israel. Okay. So when the king can’t sleep in Esther, he reads this like royal record book and remembers Mordecai, and then Mordecai is saved, and that leads down this whole path of allowing the Jews to save themselves. And then um when he can’t when the king can’t sleep in Daniel, it leads to Daniel’s promotion ’cause he has this dream and only Daniel can interpret it. And then right after this says that Daniel was promoted and he was given favor and I think a lot of the reasons that um you know the some of the kings of uh babylon come to acknowledge Yahweh as like the true living God a few times and I think that’s because um Daniel was promoted to such a position.

Matt • 47:04
Oh. All right. So Christopher Nolan. We gotta keep the we gotta keep that scene.

Hannah • 47:09
Yeah.

Matt • 47:14
Awesome. Well thanks Hannah. Uh why don’t I pray for us? Is that okay? Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Uh Heavenly Father, uh you reveal yourself to us in so many ways and your word is so powerful to read and we just admit that some of it we struggle to understand. There’s language that is hard for us to understand. There are connections and patterns that don’t really match the way that we experience life and there are situations that uh I just don’t know that I would ever find myself in. So sometimes it can be hard to come into your word and yet there is so much beauty and power and majesty and wisdom. in authority in your word. And Lord, I’m thinking a lot tonight about how to live as a person of exile, as we’ve talked about tonight. And so sometimes that may be just lament and grief and prayer, trusting in your steadfast love and your mercy. Sometimes that may may mean stepping into a really hard situation where uh people’s lives or there’s just something major at stake and I’m I’m sure you w would have sent somebody better, but you picked me or or whoever in that moment, like like Esther Lord. And then sometimes it’s this loyal subversion, um, not giving our allegiance to the thing that this world, the the forces and principles and authorities that look to be so powerful, but but remembering and being mindful that you have power over all of these things and we can trust in you and be faithful to you even when That’s not the reward system that can give us promotions or wealth or any of those things, Lord. I pray that you give the wis give us wisdom in these things, Lord. I don’t know that there’s anything about our existence today that’s quite as dramatic as the things uh from our friends that we’ve read about in the scriptures this week. But we still have some of the same choices and decisions to make to be made. And Lord, let us be loyal. and faithful to you because of what you’ve done for us and who you say you are expressed most fully in the person of Jesus who laid himself down for us that we could experience life with you and be restored and experience that abundant life together. So Lord, thank you. Thank you for what you’re showing us in your word. Help us to understand and know you more, to be obedient to you, Lord, that we can experience Life and life to the fullest because of what you’ve done for us. So we ask in Jesus’ name. Amen.

Hannah • 49:25
Amen.

Matt • 49:25
Amen. Thanks, Hannah.

Hannah • 49:27
Thanks, Matt